Katana or no!

[bobO]

Ok, I was just reading that for a katana to be a katana, it only has to be made of steel , single edged, curved and tempered, But to me this is like saying you'd rather take a production sword into battle over a traditionally made sword(kat that is) This makes me crazy (O-kay crazier) Am I all alone on this? And what should be the dividing line between a real kat and a fake one!

[Firehand10k]

I think its just a matter of how much you really know. To those of us who have more interest and have managed to educate ourselves a bit more I think there is more to it than just the meaning of the word. Sure
for a katana to be a katana, it only has to be made of steel , single edged, curved and tempered, may be by definition of the word but its not the meaning of the sword the word represents to me. This may be a bit transcendental but I think its the difference between Katana, a Katana or a katana.
A katana would be any sword fitting the description bobO gave. Somthing that meets the dictionary definintion of the word.
A Katana would be something more living up to our ideals of what the original designers, makers, and users of the great Japanese swords made of them. Something traditionally made and honorable in its own right. More a work of art and a tool of life and death than a mere weapon.
Katana then is the embodiment of what the sword has come to mean. The spirit of the proud Samurai honorable or terrible. The core of his way of life even more than just his sword.

Wow that got long quick. Couldn't find 2 pennys just a nickle.

[FrozenIpaq]

I would say that definition is completely fair. Here at SOM there are low-cost "katanas" that are for sale that should only be used for display purposes, and I think most people will accept and acknowledge that in their purchase of one.

I recently came across the term "Shinken" which, according to my small and menial research brought up the definition of a "real sword" that is practical for cutting and "combat" - although it doesn't have to be traditional in construction.

In this day and era traditional swords are extremely hard to come by and are extremely expensive, so I think we would all rather use a production katana over a traditional katana since it has more "centimental" value. We shouldn't even be found in a battle involving our katanas, so practicality I think comes down to how well it cuts on targets.

Just my opinion, no expert on this

[Firehand10k]

Is this the feeling reserved for swords over 100 years old?

"centimental" value.

Just playing. I'm not a spelling pick but that is a cool and almost relevant seeming spell.

[Brian Brazier]

Ok, I was just reading that for a katana to be a katana, it only has to be made of steel , single edged, curved and tempered, But to me this is like saying you'd rather take a production sword into battle over a traditionally made sword(kat that is)

I am sorry Bobo, but I don't understand where your definition of a Katana claims that a modern production sword would be the best choice in battle? Also the term Katana is really only suppose to pertain to Nihonto (Japanese Sword) that are 70-90cm with a curved blade, but since there isn't another word used to describe blades of those dimensions, they all get labeled Katana. Over on SFI the word Chinata has been adopted by many to describe modern production swords

[Mako]

Good question bobO...I suppose that the defining line between a real katana and a fake is that the only true ones were/are made in the traditional method by a smith in Japan and the fakes are those that are designed to mislead people into believing that they're getting something which it's not......but then we have the reproductions you've mentioned,made in many parts of the world,some of which are extremely good swords while others are only fit for hanging on the wall and the same thing could be said of some Nihon-to...many are in excellent condition,like goose's but they are equally balanced if not outweighed by 'tired' blades which won't take another polish without the core steel being exposed and are too fragile for anything other than study (that's the polite way of calling some Nihon-to wallhangers imho) but that doesn't detract from the blade's historical and aesthetical beauty...even though it may be as much use as a chocolate teapot in an actual combat situation.
An interesting topic.

[Brian Brazier]

Also there are many people (not me) that believe that modern steel and forging techniques are far superior to that of a traditional Katana. I know I have read posts on SFI about what you would bring to battle, and many people replied a Howard Clark L6 Bainite, if I had my choice it would be a Nihonto made by Gassan Sadatoshi.

[bobO]

These are things I have read on other forums, and I still don't understand this kind of thinking. To me a Japanese made Kat is the only real deal. And this is not to take anything away from those finely made modern custom made swords. But for a kat to be a kat, I want it made by a guy who's family has been in the loop for a couple hundred years or more. These things and methods have been tweaked to the nines. That's the sword for me. Other whys it like putting a ferrari body on a volkswagen frame and motor, and saying you have an Italian sports car. Firehand, thanks for the nickles worth LOL. I mean if a manufacture today makes a bad sword, he loses a few customers, and it's all about cost per unit. When the old swords went bad the guy lost his life, and maybe his whole family's life, much better incentive to get it right.

[Taygrd]

Devils Advocate:evilbat: I do not have an opinion on this matter but I am curious as to what others think.

Okay you have a nihonto blade made (pre 68) and have it polished in the west, and restored with western fittings, is it still traditional Japanese?

PS Sorry it was not 68 but 76 for the Meiji Restoration and Sword Ban. My dates in history got mixed up- was 68 the White album? hehehe

[Dotanuki]

Bob-O.
I have noticed lately, both you and Mako visiting other Forums, Mako comes back asking where Respect has gone? You asking about katana's?
I think it is best, maybe both of you just stay here. =))
I too sometimes visit other Forums, and the first thing that pops into my mind when there is "Thank God, we don't act like that here!"
They play all sorts of games with semantics, that most Japanese would find hilarious.
A Katana is a Japanese sword [hint, Japanese name]
A Gim is a chinese straight sword.
A scimitar would be a Saracen blade, so on, and so forth.
A Nihon-To would be a true Japanese blade, but can refer to both long and short swords. where the others refer to specifics.
What is missing in these conversations is that we are talking about "weapons"!!
It don't matter if you have the finest blade on the planet, if you don't have the skill to use it!! I think Musashi was trying to prove that point when he bopped Sasuke Kojiro with that oar/bokken!

Scenario; David vs, Goliath
David: I'm sorry King Saul, but I can't fight Goliath today, I need a special lead shot for my sling, it has to be of a specific weight and size!

Get my point? The kid just found the best rock and popped him!

To me, what makes a Nihon-To unique is not that it is a Rolls Royce of weapons, but that it was created in a spiritual atmosphere to have a "Kami" or spirit. Why do you think the Japanese revere some famous swords so, because they believe in it's Kami! The swordsmith pours his heart and spirit into the sword to make it so.
Many Famous Iaido masters use Nihon-To's in their forms [kata's], they would never dream of cutting with them. They practice to become one with the spirit of the sword. As a swordsman what more can one ask for?

BTW, I really liked Firehand's definition!!! :ohyeah:

[bobO]

Again, this is why I don't take typing classes. The last paragraph was something I was going to add, as I also think this is one of the most important aspects of the whole deal. Thanks, And yes I think I'll just stay right here in my own back yard. Taygrd, you have opened a can of worms, cause now we have to get into when is nihonto-nihonto. I think, if the sword was made in 1668 it's nihoto, if made in 1868 it's shinken. As to your question, yes it is nihonto, that's probably been screwed up.

[Brian Brazier]

As long as a sword is made in Japan it is a Nihonto

[bobO]

I don't think this is correct Brian. I could be wrong, I'm not sure, so could you elaborate.

[Brian Brazier]

The most basic definition of Nihonto is Japanese Sword, meaning a sword made in Japan, it dosent matter if it is old or new, as long as it is made in Japan, it is a Nihonto. The only difference between Nihonto is their shape and size, Katana is a long sword of 70-90cm and so on, also pole-mounted weapons the Naginata and Yari, due to the methods by which they are forged, are still considered part of the Nihonto family.

[FrozenIpaq]

I don't think this is correct Brian. I could be wrong, I'm not sure, so could you elaborate.

A Nihonto by definition is a Japanese sword. It is used to describe many sword types (all similar in style though). It includes the Tachi, Katana, Wakashasi, Odachi, etc. I believe Wikipedia may have an extensive list of what swords fall under this category, although I'm not sure

[Taygrd]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I retract my question since my head is begining to hurt. Honestly one of the things that is nice about this forum is the fact that we very rarely enter into such areas that the other forums do. Some of those forums relish the chance to chastise and ridicule members. Luckily we have a great group of guys here that play well together, but seriously I retract my question.:)

PS Sorry it was not 68 but 76 for the Meiji Restoration and Sword Ban. My dates in history got mixed up- was 68 the White album? hehehe

[bobO]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I retract my question since my head is begining to hurt. Honestly one of the things that is nice about this forum is the fact that we very rarely enter into such areas that the other forums do. Some of those forums relish the chance to chastise and ridicule members. Luckily we have a great group of guys here that play well together, but seriously I retract my question.:)
To late, I say, cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!:SandS: My concern is not what type of weapons are nihonto, But a matter of time, as in is a sword made yesterday considered a nihonto, I've seen many different answers to this question, and in my mind I'm still not really sure, and I've spent some time researching this.~X( No offence to brian.

[Mako]

bobO,
All bladed weapons made in Japan using the traditional method of hand forging prior to 1876 come under the heading of Nihonto even though the literal translation is Japanese Sword.
This will explain other terms used for later periods...
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/showato.htm
...and this will clarify Shinken...
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/shinken.htm

Happy reading guys.:)

[bobO]

Thank you Mako. The first article I read when researching my friends sword, the second one is new to me and a great help.

[Torawashi]

Ok, I was just reading that for a katana to be a katana, it only has to be made of steel , single edged, curved and tempered

wouldn't that same description fit a U.S. Cavalry saber from the 1800s? I don't think they qualify as katana, so no that definition is definitely out there.

[Brian Brazier]

The term Katana is really only pertains to Nihonto swords with curved blades 60cm or greater, but since every sword maker out there calls their Japanese style blades Katana it has become an accepted term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana