Do you practice any martial arts?

[tanukimario]

Okay so there seems to be a lot of talk about martial arts around the forum, so I thought i'd make a topic and ask the question: Do you practice any type of martial arts? When I say this though I do mean actually practice like in a dojo or personally trained by a master, and not like "learning at home" kind of martial arts.

As for me, I am currently not learning any martial arts, but a while back I was training in taekwon do. I stopped after I got my red and black belt (it's actually a two striped belt, which in taekwondo, it's the belt right before you get the black belt but after you get the red belt). After I took the test to get my belt and I got the belt, I pretty much just quit. Overtime, I just lost a lot of my interest in it. I have tried gumdo (korean-styled kendo) for a while, but I was never completely commited to it and I don't want to say "I had no time", so instead i'll say I did not take the time to fit it into my life's schedule. ;)

So, what martial arts do you practice in?

[Travis Morris]

I practice:

JuJutsu - at home with other certified instructors, as I am one myself
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - at a school
Judo - at a school

[bobO]

See now I just feel silly ,telling you judo is going to help you.Travis,what do you think of(if you even have heard of it)the Tai Zen schools there on the Island.I know a bunch of there black belts.

[Travis Morris]

See now I just feel silly ,telling you judo is going to help you.Travis,what do you think of(if you even have heard of it)the Tai Zen schools there on the Island.I know a bunch of there black belts.

TaiZen seems OK. Not really my cup of tea. I like what they say, but I am not a big fan of "karate-ish" arts. But hey, if it works for someone else, I am all for that. I am not one to say, "my art is better than yours". However, I am one to say, "my art is better for me, than yours."

It all boils down to what your interests are and what you plan to do.

[bobO]

Very well said Travis.I was just talking to my friend and they have one of the X-students from the farmingville dojo at there school now.I guess some strange stuff goes on there.Good call on our parts!

[Travis Morris]

Very well said Travis.

I do try ;)

I was just talking to my friend and they have one of the X-students from the farmingville dojo at there school now.I guess some strange stuff goes on there.Good call on our parts!

I think there is also a Okinawan Karate school there as well. Did they leave the Karate or Iaido?

[tsafa]

I am guessing that by Martial Arts you mean unarmored fighting. I think most people have moved away from the old idea that martial arts is limited to Asian unarmored forms only. The word "martial" refers to the to the Roman god of war, Mars. So martial means war-like. When you think of the term War-Like Arts, you can see how it can be very inclusive of any fighting forms.

In answer to the question as it was intended, I study European grappling as taught in the 15th century fightbooks.

[bobO]

tsafa,If your not a Martial artist the words have no meaning! Also where did you get the name tsafa? Thanks bobO

[tsafa]

Thank you Bobo. I do consider myself as such. When I tell people I practice martial arts they are very surprised when they hear the details.

My last name is Tsafatinos. Its Greek. Tsafa is short for that. Kids use to called me tsafa in grammer school. It stuck.

My first name is Vassilis. The custom for that is to be called Bill. Its a weird thing in the Greek community. Jut like Yannis is John and Georgos is George.

[bobO]

Your welcome tsafa. Thanks for clearing that up for me.I thought it was some medieval knights name or something.When I tell people I study it just makes em more nervous.So I rarely bring it up.

[XinYao]

I mainly do traditonal ITF Taekwondo, but 'my' martial arts are based on Jeet Kune Do philosophy. I have training in Jeet Kune Do, Capoeira, and a little western boxing.
I really wanna learn Iaido but it seems there are no schools in my area =(

[bobO]

I always liked what Master Lee had to say,Some of it wasn't as original as some would think,but he did bring a lot of old idea's into the modern conscience.I read the tao of JKD and studied it well,gave me a lot of insight.The guy was on to something for sure,just a shame we never really got to see it to the end.Fighting boxers sucks,those guys know how to take a shot and hit HARD.I find it best to just kick em in the nads and be done with it.

[Travis Morris]

One thing I think(and this is purely opinion) is that you can not train in or teach Jeet Kune Do (JKD). You can only practice the "idea" of JKD. From my understanding JKD is concept and philosophy. And the underlying idea is do what works for you. So how can some one else teach you what works for you? The answer is they cant. Not to sound rude, but when people say they have been taught JKD, I just do not believe it.

[bobO]

Boy do I have to agree with you there ,Travis.You can be "trained" in the concept of JKD. But to put down a set of moves and then say this is JKD totally misses the mark and would have made Bruce pretty angry.IMO. Here lies a once fluid man, cramped and distorted by the classical mess! Bruce lee wrote that and he was right. I think this is also what Dotanuki is always telling us.(I think)

[RedZorak]

Not to sound rude, but when people say they have been taught JKD, I just do not believe it.

I sorta agree... but you need to know techniques and have some ability before you can apply the JKD concepts. So you in a way you have to be taught JKD before it becomes JKD. It is a weird idea to convey through text...

[Dotanuki]

I agree with both of you. Travis and Bob-O.
When Bruce Lee refers to the classical mess, he was talking about the mindset of the Martial Arts at the time. Being blindly adhering to one style and the guilt of cross training, sticking only with one style. Especially cross training nationwise [China/Japan]. I believe if he would have lived JKD would look nothing like it does now.
Bruce was railing about trained martial artists using their mind and thinking for themselves. Not blindly following whatever the current masters in control are saying.
Truthfully, I would consider Travis to be the epitome of JKD ideals. He learned an entire martial art straight thru to blackbelt level, after a few years as blackbelt he is expanding his knowledge to include BJJ and Judo, and I am sure he will not stop there. He serves as a proper example to all martial artists.
As I said before, when Bruce said "Take the best, Discard the rest" He meant you actually had to learn something all the way thru, before you can discard anything. After you learn an entire system/systems, only then can you pick and choose what is right for you.
Travis, didn't mean to embarrass you, but I really do respect what you are doing and the way you conduct yourself.

[bobO]

I sorta agree... but you need to know techniques and have some ability before you can apply the JKD concepts. So you in a way you have to be taught JKD before it becomes JKD. It is a weird idea to convey through text...I think you have to get to that place ,where a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick. I could do this all night,I'm such a post whore.:>

[Travis Morris]

Truthfully, I would consider Travis to be the epitome of JKD ideals. He learned an entire martial art straight thru to blackbelt level, after a few years as blackbelt he is expanding his knowledge to include BJJ and Judo, and I am sure he will not stop there. He serves as a proper example to all martial artists.
As I said before, when Bruce said "Take the best, Discard the rest" He meant you actually had to learn something all the way thru, before you can discard anything. After you learn an entire system/systems, only then can you pick and choose what is right for you.
Travis, didn't mean to embarrass you, but I really do respect what you are doing and the way you conduct yourself.

Thanks for the kind words Dotanuki! I really appreciate it!

[Travis Morris]

I sorta agree... but you need to know techniques and have some ability before you can apply the JKD concepts. So you in a way you have to be taught JKD before it becomes JKD. It is a weird idea to convey through text...

I can agree with that, well put. I just think JKD as a style(some advertise it) is not real. Only concept

[RedZorak]

JKD as an art is really just a mix of other arts, so the concept part is really the only thing that really makes it a separate art, IMO.

[Travis Morris]

JKD as an art is really just a mix of other arts, so the concept part is really the only thing that really makes it a separate art, IMO.

I kinda agree. I think its a mix of arts, that work best for you, the individual. To say its just a mix of arts is kinda general. If someone practices Karate, Aikido, and Tae Kwon Do, it does not mean they practice Jeet Kune Do. But, if they see each art for what it is and use what they feel fits them as the individual, then they practice JKD. IMO

The grappling arts are what I feel I am best at (JuJutsu,Judo,Aikido,Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu). So I have learned one (tradtional JuJutsu), and discarded what I feel is not right for me. Although, some may say it works for them. Its all about the individual. But I do plan on taking some striking arts, some day

[XinYao]

So I have learned one (tradtional JuJutsu), and discarded what I feel is not right for me. Although, some may say it works for them. Its all about the individual.

too true. One of the first martial art related things I've done was wrestling in middle school. It seems I'm not too good on the ground but I am pretty good at striking.
Just a note. I think the techniques I learned from Jeet Kune Do are basically the techniques Bruce Lee thought would be most effective for people. There are many different strikes taught and I think the idea is to show the student many practical and useful techniques so he can find out what is best for him/her.
I found out I love using Wing Chun trapping and punching methods with Kali strikes.

[bobO]

Gotta love "sticky hands".

[Tony Ferrill]

Shorei Goju Ryu;3rd kyu,going to 2nd in March.I was going to 4-6 classes a week,down to 3,but built a dojo in the basement and train with family and neighbor as time allows.
Tony

[Travis Morris]

Shorei Goju Ryu;3rd kyu,going to 2nd in March.
Tony

Congrats! Keep it up.

I was going to 4-6 classes a week,down to 3,but built a dojo in the basement and train with family and neighbor as time allows.

I used to train 6 days a week. I also have mats in my basement. Its great cause we train early morning on Saturday before class and early Sunday morning. I now just train:

Tues - 6-9PM at the school
Thurs - 6-9PM at the school
Sat - 9AM-12PM at home 1-3PM at the school (i know, long day!)
Sun - 9AM-12PM at home

This kind of brings me to a point I would like to make. People who say they have trained for 30+ years. My question is, how many hours a week did you put in? You can train for years, but at an hour a week, that means close to nothing, unless you are a martial arts prodigy. So when a school suggests that you take at least 2 classes (usually 1 hr each) a week, its not a scam. Its so you can actually progress. Just wanted to share that thought and concern.

[bobO]

Well since I fit that profile,When I was your age I worked out, At least 3-4 hours a day,just to run thru every thing I needed to.That went on for years.Time in the Kwoon was at least 6 hours a week..Now of course I'm down to about 6 hours a week for every thing .I do not look nor move like I'm 52.The end result is I've introduced more then one black belt to the floor and hope to be able to do so for at least a few more years.Of course I don't fight fair. And speaking not as a tough,but as an old fart that's been there,10 minutes in the dark in the mud and the blood and where the guy on you Might be happy just kickin your butt,but maybe not.No ref's no rules' no one there to call time out,well that's gotta be worth at least a few hours in the dojo.PS. never marry a stripper especially a pretty mexican one.

[Travis Morris]

I worked out, At least 3-4 hours a day,just to run thru every thing I needed to.That went on for years.

See to me, thats impressive.

[Tony Ferrill]

Wow,I wish I had the time to train like that!I work 7 days a week and take off when I just can't do it anymore.I have 2 small kids(1&3)and a wife 20 years younger than myself.If she didn't support my training,I just plain couldn't do it!
=))Been there,BobO-the little ladies are a challenge in themselves,much less their "admirers";I changed up my dating pool to girls I'd see on the street,then met my wife.As an aside,we no longer even go to bars-and I haven't been in an altercation in 5 years.And no,I don't miss that drama!
Best self-defense tip.....If you don't like getting hit in the head,simply don't put it where it does not belong!:-O
Thanks for the congrats,Travis!!Best thing I ever did for myself and my family.I truly believe I was dying from inactivity!
Respect to all Tony

[bobO]

I have two friends on the Island that have been going to the same dojo for over 25 years.It's a big deal if they miss a class.They start talking about there style you wonder if there speaking English.I admire what you guy's do pick a style learn the whole thing,move on do it again,cool. Because I used to move around a lot, I'd get 1 or 2 years at a school have to move on.So I learned to take away the best of what I'd learned and polish that.Once you know the basic mechanic's it's easier to pick up a new art. A punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick, the world over.IMO That's right Tony ,the best block is not to be there,lol!

[Dotanuki]

Tony,
Working 7 days a week, a wife 20 years younger, and 2 toddlers, is a feat in itself!=D> ;)
That's not even taking into account your martial arts training, especially at your age.=))
When you have a physically demanding job, it does make a big difference, physically and mentally. The body can be amazing at times, it seems as if, the more you do, the more you can do. Just be carefull you don't reach your breaking point though. Also remember age is a big factor as you get older, your metabolism changes as you get older, whether you like it or not.
But I have no doubt, we will soon be congratulating on your big promotion.[and I don't mean job!] ;)

[Travis Morris]

I am actually in the process of putting together a system. The way its set up is:

Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, 3 Browns, Black.

Each rank is going to have stand up JuJutsu, Judo, BJJ. And each following rank is going to build on the last. This way you are always practicing the basics.

[Tony Ferrill]

Tony,
Working 7 days a week, a wife 20 years younger, and 2 toddlers, is a feat in itself!=D> ;)
That's not even taking into account your martial arts training, especially at your age.=))
When you have a physically demanding job, it does make a big difference, physically and mentally. The body can be amazing at times, it seems as if, the more you do, the more you can do. Just be carefull you don't reach your breaking point though. Also remember age is a big factor as you get older, your metabolism changes as you get older, whether you like it or not.
But I have no doubt, we will soon be congratulating on your big promotion.[and I don't mean job!] ;)

=))Ever heard the story about the old bull,the young bull,and the pasture across the way full of heifers?The young bull wants to run across the field,jump the fence,and bag one of the heifers.The old bull says no,we mosey across the way,walk around the fence,and keep ALL the heifers happy!
I think maybe June will see that promotion!I want it badly,but am trying to balance life out with work,family,training.Need about three more hours in the day;don't think that will happen.And you're right about the old metabolic rate-I still weigh a lot more than I should.But I'm trying to get healthier-oatmeal instead of gravy,sirloin instead of ribeye.....slowly but surely replacing the worst stuff with somewhat better stuff,and the karate is adding some aerobic activity to the heavy lifting I do at work and on the basement bench.
;)Life is good!!!
Respectfully,Tony

[Koryo]

Hello everyone. I am new to this forum.

To answer the original question: I have studied WTF Taekwondo, Hapkido, Haedong Gumdo and several budo weapons. I trained in schools(not self-taught). I am also a full time instructor in all of these at a dojang.

I started studying when I was 10 years old and have continued for 23 years to this day.

[Travis Morris]

Hello everyone. I am new to this forum.

To answer the original question: I have studied WTF Taekwondo, Hapkido, Haedong Gumdo and several budo weapons. I trained in schools(not self-taught). I am also a full time instructor in all of these at a dojang.

I started studying when I was 10 years old and have continued for 23 years to this day.

Thats great! Glad to hear about it. I like a lot of the Korean arts

[Travis Morris]

I am actually in the process of putting together a system. The way its set up is:

Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, 3 Browns, Black.


I actually just split each rank. Now each rank has a black stripe. The solid color will be the stand up(striking, locks, chokes) and the stripe wll be the throws and floor fighting

[bobO]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this. All things being equal, what sword style would do best against a samurai?

[69NINJA]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this. All things being equal, what sword style would do best against a samurai?

i'm not one to answer anything like that but wouldnt it depend on what styles the samurai was trained in?


-off subject- OMG this is the first time ive posted since we got new smileys and my first time seeing them, Jason these ones are great=D>

[bobO]

I guess I should have been more specific. I got this idea from Tsafa, who posted on another forum, who would win in a fight a broadsword or a rapier.(I think rapier)Anyway what I meant was if a samurai went up against a lets say viking, who would you bet on.Now if one guy is in armor so would the other etc. Just thought it would be fun to kick around.

[Jason Moore]

-off subject- OMG this is the first time ive posted since we got new smileys and my first time seeing them, Jason these ones are great=D>

Thanks Ninja, I love cool smilies, they always make me laugh! Just added this one: :hahaskull:

Sorry Bobo to get off topic...

[bobO]

No problem Jason, since when did we ever worry about that on this forum, besides don't look like anyone is jumping on this bandwagon any way.

[Jason Moore]

I don't think any particular "style" of warrior would win, I think it depends on the warrior's heart, fortitude and training. I really beleive in some instances a total novice COULD beat an expert if conditions were right..

[Dotanuki]

If people hit the lottery every day, at over a million to one odds, it just proves that anyone can be beat, by anyone, if luck is on their side.
Training and skill only increases the odds of victory, it doesn't guarantee it. Just ask the New England Patriots, I'm sure right now they would agree.

[Nyetna Khazûl]

I currently don´t train any martial art, butt I have trained and tried on lots and lots of martial arts:

Jujutsu - Five-six years of training, reached shodan degree. School took more and more time so I haven´t trained Jujutsu for two years. =(

Judo - About two years.

Kunibakai Karate - About two years, actually I liked it more than Jujutsu. Why I don´t know.

Greco-Roman Wrestling - About one-two years.

Also tried Muay Thai, Taekwondo, Boxing, Naginata and Iaido a couple of times.

Do I pass the requirements? :>

[Travis Morris]

I currently don´t train any martial art, butt I have trained and tried on lots and lots of martial arts:

Jujutsu - Five-six years of training, reached shodan degree. School took more and more time so I haven´t trained Jujutsu for two years. =(

Judo - About two years.

Kunibakai Karate - About two years, actually I liked it more than Jujutsu. Why I don´t know.

Greco-Roman Wrestling - About one-two years.

Also tried Muay Thai, Taekwondo, Boxing, Naginata and Iaido a couple of times.

Do I pass the requirements? :>


You pass with flying colors! :karate::ninjabattle:

How come you do not presently train? If you do not mind me asking

[Nyetna Khazûl]

You pass with flying colors! :karate::ninjabattle:

How come you do not presently train? If you do not mind me asking

Awesome, all I need now is someone who can fix my hair and I´ll be a samurai in no time! :lager:

School and work is currently taking all my time, I work as a chef and got lots of studies to, but schools out in May so then, hopefully then, will the roaring master once again be seen in the mountains fighting of bears and wolfs. :ohyeah:

[Tony Ferrill]

After much work,sweat,and some minor blood-loss,I was raised to the rank of Shodan,1st degree Black Belt,in Shorei-Goju Ryu karate...on Friday,June 27th,6:30 PM.I am crosstraining in Ryukyu Kempo;am scheduled to receive another Shodan in that system on July 12th.
I am allowing myself a pat on the back this weekend.
Back to work on Monday,Nidan material looks very interesting;teaching the beginner class on Tuesday and an intrmediate/advanced adults class on Fridays.
Feeling very good about this!
Respectfully,Tony

[bobO]

=D>Congrats!=D> I love to watch the tests, you know there giving 100%.:karate::celebration:

[Mako]

Many congratz Tony. =D>

[goose710]

Tony
Congradulations Tony, !
da goose710

[Taygrd]

What a great accomplishment. You should be very happy to have progressed to such a rank. You should feel very good about it since you have put a lot of hard work and effort into it.=D>=D>=D>

[FrozenIpaq]

How long was your test? I reached my 1st Dan rank in Tang Soo Do over a year ago at a 7 hour test. The first 3 hours was non-stop exercise (push-ups, crunches, striding technies/kicks) and then the remaining 4 hours consisted of the testing period. Also all our instructions were given in Korean, at the end of the day the balls of my feet were killing me. My instructor got his 4th Dan (masters) a few months after mine and his test was over 4 days (full day long test).

It's a great accomplishment to acheive a 1st degree blackbelt, but that's not where the training ends - in reality this is where the training really begins. Congrats once again!

[Tony Ferrill]

The testing itself was over four days,an hour or two at a time;and I thought it was rather difficult.....were I to have had a seven hour test consisting of three hours of callisthenics and other high intensity exercise,then four hours of kata,bunkai,and sparring(form and freestyle),my nature is to do whatever it takes to finish.I am sure I would not make it to Nidan(or breakfast),but they could have buried me looking good in this Shodan!
That level of fitness has long ago eluded me.Maybe when I came home from the USMC-27 years ago!LOL I have to thump the sparring partners pretty well at the beginning;that way the respect is set in place for when I run out of wind ten minutes later.They are nervous about closing!!
Life is wonderful,and Budo is a great way to look at it!
Thank you all for your congrats;now time to get back to work!
Respects-Tony

[bobO]

LOL' My younger brother teases me about being old, says I'd be lucky to go 3 minutes, ask him if he wants to go, he declines every time.

[jwilliams]

LOL' My younger brother teases me about being old, says I'd be lucky to go 3 minutes, ask him if he wants to go, he declines every time.

3 minutes can seem like 3 hours. And if you do it right you'll have 2 1/2 minutes left over to do whatever you want.

[Dotanuki]

Well, considering he's younger, it would probably take you ten minutes to run him down. =))

Tony,
Congrats, I still want to hear the paticulars when you get time! :)

[bobO]

LOL, You both got it right!! I tell him and others, that if it takes me more then 30 seconds I must be slipping, his reply is you got to catch me first!

[jwilliams]

Well, considering he's younger, it would probably take you ten minutes to run him down. =))



Tony,
Congrats, I still want to hear the particulars when you get time! :)

Only if it takes that long to find the keys to my truck.

Yes, congratulations.

[Travis Morris]

Congrats! Shodan is just the beginning ;)

I just got my Blue Belt in BJJ! Very excited. :celebration:

Now its time to start training for that Purple!!!! :karate:

[bobO]

=D>Travis, Well done!!

[royalblueeyes]

For those who don't know me; I lurk around these boards like an assassin.
Martial Arts:
Tae Kwon Do basics in Middle School (And I mean BASICS in terms of punches and kicks)
"Shorinryu" Karate basics in High School (I learned the basics of the stances)
And now I'm an assistant instructor in sword at my dojo.
I practice:
Jujutsu: Yellow belt
Karate: Orange belt
Iaido: Shodan
Kobudo: Unranked

I'd probably be higher in karate and jujutsu, if I didn't spend so much time practicing sword. But, honestly, how many ways do I need to kick a guys butt before he liquifies? I dunno, I'm just not motivated enough for the unarmed arts as I should be.
I'm just of the opinion that once someone is awakened to the knowledge that every movement in kata represents an attack, the only way to improve is to actually use it. But sparring kinda limits that experience, in my humble opinion, because of the fact the sparring gloves make it hard to grasp onto someone and use the basics.

...Maybe I could be motivated by having Sensei come at me with a sword in karate practice...:-?
And then I could write a book, "The Essentials of Karate; When your Sensei comes at you with a sword, he's telling you to practice!"

:blackeye: Sorry for rambling.

[FrozenIpaq]

Royal - sorry to hear that you lack motivation for unarmed martial arts! I myself am an avid practitioner of unarmed martial arts (Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do currently) and as a Shodan in both arts I can see where lack of motivation comes from.

I've always been motivated by the aspect of achieving the next rank and perfecting my techniques. The difference between a shodan and say a white belt is pretty outstanding in terms of techniques. You may not see how learning all these various techniques helps much but let me say - they make a huge difference. Training in martial arts has not only improved my self-confidence but has made me more aware. The true rewards of the arts can take quite some time to see - took me 4 years to realize the rewards of unarmed martial arts (for one I was much stronger, as well as more aware, more confident and have some killer techniques that turn any board into dust ;) ).

I really think how much you are motivated by an art is how much it ties into your character. I took Koba Ryu when I was 5 years old, stopped at age 8 because the instructor quit and then picked up Tang Soo Do around age 13. I just recently went to try out Shotokan Karate at my school and found that it was definetly not the art for me after achieving my shodan in Tang Soo Do.

All I'm trying to say is keep your mind open about martial arts that focus on unarmed combat - you will find yourself in more situations without a sword than with one I bet ;)

[royalblueeyes]

All I'm trying to say is keep your mind open about martial arts that focus on unarmed combat - you will find yourself in more situations without a sword than with one I bet ;)
I know, I remember a class where we applied jujutsu principles to sword, and I had the time of my life. Fundamentally, the principles of the art always stay the same, and while I may not have such a great grasp over those principles, as say, a Shodan, I know them well enough for the current purpose of my life, which has me more at the dojo and community college than at home or out and about. So, I'll try to keep that in mind when I'm "going through the motions" of karate, instead of thinking the art not applicable to my lifestyle (all though, saying it's not applicable to my life style, and then being at the dojo throughout the day does sound iffy).

I've never been a fan of karate movies, which may be why I don't cherish the art like I do with sword (By God, you'd hate me for how many times I've watched Shogun's Samurai in one month!).

But, now I'm off for the dojo for the usual karate jujutsu Monday extravaganza, let's hope this time I don't lose my lunch.

[FrozenIpaq]

Well good luck with all of that! I myself am a stickler (correct usage?) of korean martial arts. I've tried some Japanes arts and found that Tang Soo Do / Tae Kwon Do were the best ones for everyday use and knowledge. One key concept in Tang Soo Do that my school taught was HIPS HIPS HIPS! And I'm glad they were so focused on it, are school is known for our "hips" and the power it generates is :mace: ;)

[royalblueeyes]

One key concept in Tang Soo Do that my school taught was HIPS HIPS HIPS!
All martial arts should teach how to use the hips as much as possible.
As far as I know, there's no Jujutsu waza that doesn't use hips, Iaido requires the hips to be able to cut as well as reach out a little farther, and Karate, well, unless we're talking Power Kix, my hips are burning from working on the damned kicks.
Roundhouse kicks in particular.

Without hips, you're basically playing tug-of-war with only your arms.

[FrozenIpaq]

All martial arts should teach how to use the hips as much as possible.
As far as I know, there's no Jujutsu waza that doesn't use hips, Iaido requires the hips to be able to cut as well as reach out a little farther, and Karate, well, unless we're talking Power Kix, my hips are burning from working on the damned kicks.
Roundhouse kicks in particular.

Without hips, you're basically playing tug-of-war with only your arms.

Most of the schools I've been to have discussed hips but haven't emphasized it enough or sometimes not at all. I went to the first class of the fall for the Shotokan karate at my college and the instructor, a 6th dan in Shotokan I believe, taught the class. He told us not to use hips...that was the last time I went to that class.

If you look at katas there is generally a lack of hip movement, atleast with the tournaments I've been to and the videos I've seen. It makes it look extremely "blocky" and jagged. Everything we did, forms, self-defense, striding techniques (hands and feet) we used hips.

[Travis Morris]

Most of the schools I've been to have discussed hips but haven't emphasized it enough or sometimes not at all. I went to the first class of the fall for the Shotokan karate at my college and the instructor, a 6th dan in Shotokan I believe, taught the class. He told us not to use hips.

You must have some pretty $hitty schools by you. I train Traditional JuJutsu, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and Muay Thai. They all focus on and work the hips.

[bobO]

Also gung-fu and karate, the hips are the engine that power the machine. There are many ways to demonstrate this.

[FrozenIpaq]

You must have some pretty $hitty schools by you. I train Traditional JuJutsu, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and Muay Thai. They all focus on and work the hips.

Hence why i never went to another one of their classes, it was, as you so politely put it, a shitty school. There are other schools that focus on hips around my area and I've started Tae Kwon Do here because it follows along the same lines as Tang Soo Do. Hips are especially needed in grappling arts, no one can deny that so I'm not surprised that you do so in Jiujitsu.

One term that my teacher used to describe extreme hip movement on myself and a few other advanced students was "anti hip". I've yet to see this term used elsewhere or see anyone use hips to the extent that we had. Lots of schools focus on hips but the actual application varies and that's really what I've been complaining about.

[Dotanuki]

Most of the schools I've been to have discussed hips but haven't emphasized it enough or sometimes not at all. I went to the first class of the fall for the Shotokan karate at my college and the instructor, a 6th dan in Shotokan I believe, taught the class. He told us not to use hips...that was the last time I went to that class.

If you look at katas there is generally a lack of hip movement, atleast with the tournaments I've been to and the videos I've seen. It makes it look extremely "blocky" and jagged. Everything we did, forms, self-defense, striding techniques (hands and feet) we used hips.

I will have to tell all the Shotokan instructors I know there is no hip movement in Shotokan. I am sure they will be quite shocked to find this out. Maybe you should have went to more tournaments.
Shotokan is famous for it's hip rotation!

[FrozenIpaq]

I will have to tell all the Shotokan instructors I know there is no hip movement in Shotokan. I am sure they will be quite shocked to find this out. Maybe you should have went to more tournaments.
Shotokan is famous for it's hip rotation!

I never said that Shotokan does not use hips, just that the instructor told us not to use hips...hence my reason for not taking another class of his after that. I'm not dishing on Shotokan for not using hips (because obviously they do, as do most martial arts I know), just the instructor who claimed a very high rank in Shotokan... Although it's interesting to hear that Shotokan does indeed focus on hips as well as I never did any reasearch on Shotokan after that class I had.

[Dotanuki]

Maybe if you did some research, you would of found out Shotokan is the basis for Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do.
I don't have time today, but I will post a history lesson on the true origins of Tae Kwon Do/Tang Soo Do on my next post tomorrow.

[FrozenIpaq]

Maybe if you did some research, you would of found out Shotokan is the basis for Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do.
I don't have time today, but I will post a history lesson on the true origins of Tae Kwon Do/Tang Soo Do on my next post tomorrow.

You should probably define what you mean by "basis"... It is true that TKD and Tang Soo Do have katas/forms identical to Shotokan karate - but does that define it as having a basis for TKD/TSD, I personally don't think so.

Shotokan karate is one of the oldest Japanese martial arts still practiced today and will have had its influence on all arts that came after it - TKD/TSD included. I wouldn't go so far however as to state that Shotokan is the basis for TSD/TKD, that's just a bit ignorant as no book or internet source I've read on TSD can give a clear basis/origin of the art.

[RedZorak]

As a practitioner of Tang Soo Do myself, I somewhat agree with Dotanuki. Most of the art is heavily reliant upon techniques taken from Shotokan. There are, however, more influences, such as Kung Fu. There is the argument of the history being traced back 2 thousand years or something, but that is debatable.

[Travis Morris]

Everything comes from something.

Judo, Aikido, and Karate from JuJutsu, BJJ from Judo. JuJutsu from Wushu, Wushu from Pankration.

It all stems off of something else. A true martial artist knows this. Once he knows, he begins to piece it all back together, ultimately finding his own way.

[bobO]

Travis, nice to see you've done your homework! Dotanuki, I look forward to this. Frozen, empty your cup, and then it can over flow with knowledge.

[Dotanuki]

First of all,
Shotokan is hardly the oldest martial art practiced today in Japan, Gichen Funakoshi was sent from Okinawa to teach Karate in Japan in 1922, it didn't even become known as Shotokan untill years later when his students named it Shotokan after him.
The ancient martial arts (koryu) that are still practiced in Japan are the sword, weapon and Jujutsu arts which can be traced back centuries. All Karate in Japan is relatively a newcomer.
The reason that you cannot find any information on the roots of TKD/TSD is because the Korean government has purposely obscured this information over the years, for political, nationalistic and propaganda reasons. (TKD in the Olympics for one) Many senior American, Korean martial arts instructors know this as do the Japanese. Maybe if you would have asked your instructor instead of trying just to look it up he might of told you this.
As I said this is not common knowledge and most TKD practitioners only know the Korean governments official line.

I would like to say this this first before I go any further. The Korean Martial Arts are just as rich in history as Japan, China and Okinawa, and do have martial arts that can be traced back, TKD/TSD unfortunately are not one of them.
History lesson;
Japan was a colonial power in the late 1800's along with England, Russia, France, Germany and many others. Think of the movie "55 Days at Peking".
Japan formerly annexed Korea in 1910, as part of Japan. At this point Japan banned all the native martial arts of Korea, as well as many other things, at one point they wanted the Koreans to speak only Japanese.
The martial arts practiced in Korea at this time were Karate (mainly Shotokan), Kendo (which became Kumdo) and Judo (Korean Yudo). Most of the population was drafted into work crews, the military (Japanese army) or many of the women were drafted as comfort women (sex slaves) for the military. This last one is a point of animosity to this day, between Korea and Japan.
Japan had started hostilities with China in 1931, it broke out into full blown war in 1937, they attacked from Korea.
Martial Arts;
Born in 1907, A Korean named Won Kuk Yi attended a university in Japan, in which he says he learned Tang Soo Do from Sensei Funakoshi in the 1920's. At this time Funakoshi did not call his art Shotokan, rather it was refered to as Karate Do. Karate Do was the old characters that meant China Hand Way, translated to Korean, Tang Soo Do. Being Korean, Won Kuk Yi would automatically refer to Karate Do as Tang Soo Do as this was his lanquage. In Okinawa at this time Karate was refered to as Toudi or Tode, which means China Hand. In Chinese, it would be refered to as Tang Shou Tao. Later the Okinawans would change China Hand to empty hand, they are different characters (kanji) but are both pronounced karate.
Won Kuk Yi returned to Korea in 1933, in which he taught what he called Tang Soo Do. (old Shotokan) This art was actually the first TKD, but he is also listed as teaching Hwang Ki (founder of modern TSD) as well as many of the early famous Korean instructors. Won Kuk Yi founded the Chung Do Kwan in 1944, with the approval of the Japanese Occupation forces in Korea. In 1945 when Japan was defeated, he was tried as a collaborater with the Japanese, he was luckily acquited though.
After the war 6 martial arts schools (kwans) opened up.
They are listed here; name, year founded, parent style, founder.

Chung Do Kwan- 1944/45-Shotokan-Won Kuk Yi
Song Mu Kwan- 1944/45 -Shotokan- Byung Jik Ro
Yun Mu Kwan- 1945-Shotokan?-Sup Jun Sang
Mu Duk Kwan -1945- eclectic/Shotokan-Hwang Ki (Tang Soo Do)
Chang Mu Kwan-1946-Shudokan/Chuan Fa- In Yun Byung
Chi Do Kwan-1946- Shito-Ryu-Byung Yun Kwe

All these Kwans were to be known as TKD, except for the Mu Duk Kwan, which was always refered to as TSD

Hwang Ki the founder of what what is now known as TSD, claims to have studied subak and Tae Kyon (older arts). He traveled to Northern China in 1936 as a railroad worker, where he says he learned Chinese Boxing, although it might have been an early version of Karate, because China was under military occupation at the time, and the Japanese military would have never allowed the teaching of Kung Fu.
In Hwang Ki's latest book "The History of Moo Duk Kwan" He states that the Knowledge and understanding of the majority of the forms taught within TSD came from reading Japanese books on Okinawan Karate (presumedbly the "Karate Kyohan"- 1935-Funakoshi)
In 1958 the Mu Duk Kwan separated from the rest of the Kwans to become Tang Soo Do, a karate style distinct from TKD. Hwang Ki is known as an exceptionly skilled martial artist, no matter how he was instructed.

This will have to be a 2 parter, Family problems have just popped up that I have to take care of. I wiil finish at a later date with further information.
The majority of this information was taken from the article;
"Tae Kwon Do: An Historical Appraisal" by Robert E Dohrenwend, Ph.D.
It is spread over 4 issues, Dragon Times, volume 22 and 23, Classical Fighting Arts, Issue 1 and 2.

[Torawashi]

First of all,
Shotokan is hardly the oldest martial art practiced today in Japan, Gichen Funakoshi was sent from Okinawa to teach Karate in Japan in 1922, it didn't even become known as Shotokan untill years later when his students named it Shotokan after him.
The ancient martial arts (koryu) that are still practiced in Japan are the sword, weapon and Jujutsu arts which can be traced back centuries. All Karate in Japan is relatively a newcomer.
The reason that you cannot find any information on the roots of TKD/TSD is because the Korean government has purposely obscured this information over the years, for political, nationalistic and propaganda reasons. (TKD in the Olympics for one) Many senior American, Korean martial arts instructors know this as do the Japanese. Maybe if you would have asked your instructor instead of trying just to look it up he might of told you this.
As I said this is not common knowledge and most TKD practitioners only know the Korean governments official line.

I would like to say this this first before I go any further. The Korean Martial Arts are just as rich in history as Japan, China and Okinawa, and do have martial arts that can be traced back, TKD/TSD unfortunately are not one of them.
History lesson;
Japan was a colonial power in the late 1800's along with England, Russia, France, Germany and many others. Think of the movie "55 Days at Peking".
Japan formerly annexed Korea in 1910, as part of Japan. At this point Japan banned all the native martial arts of Korea, as well as many other things, at one point they wanted the Koreans to speak only Japanese.
The martial arts practiced in Korea at this time were Karate (mainly Shotokan), Kendo (which became Kumdo) and Judo (Korean Yudo). Most of the population was drafted into work crews, the military (Japanese army) or many of the women were drafted as comfort women (sex slaves) for the military. This last one is a point of animosity to this day, between Korea and Japan.
Japan had started hostilities with China in 1931, it broke out into full blown war in 1937, they attacked from Korea.
Martial Arts;
Born in 1907, A Korean named Won Kuk Yi attended a university in Japan, in which he says he learned Tang Soo Do from Sensei Funakoshi in the 1920's. At this time Funakoshi did not call his art Shotokan, rather it was refered to as Karate Do. Karate Do was the old characters that meant China Hand Way, translated to Korean, Tang Soo Do. Being Korean, Won Kuk Yi would automatically refer to Karate Do as Tang Soo Do as this was his lanquage. In Okinawa at this time Karate was refered to as Toudi or Tode, which means China Hand. In Chinese, it would be refered to as Tang Shou Tao. Later the Okinawans would change China Hand to empty hand, they are different characters (kanji) but are both pronounced karate.
Won Kuk Yi returned to Korea in 1933, in which he taught what he called Tang Soo Do. (old Shotokan) This art was actually the first TKD, but he is also listed as teaching Hwang Ki (founder of modern TSD) as well as many of the early famous Korean instructors. Won Kuk Yi founded the Chung Do Kwan in 1944, with the approval of the Japanese Occupation forces in Korea. In 1945 when Japan was defeated, he was tried as a collaborater with the Japanese, he was luckily acquited though.
After the war 6 martial arts schools (kwans) opened up.
They are listed here; name, year founded, parent style, founder.

Chung Do Kwan- 1944/45-Shotokan-Won Kuk Yi
Song Mu Kwan- 1944/45 -Shotokan- Byung Jik Ro
Yun Mu Kwan- 1945-Shotokan?-Sup Jun Sang
Mu Duk Kwan -1945- eclectic/Shotokan-Hwang Ki (Tang Soo Do)
Chang Mu Kwan-1946-Shudokan/Chuan Fa- In Yun Byung
Chi Do Kwan-1946- Shito-Ryu-Byung Yun Kwe

All these Kwans were to be known as TKD, except for the Mu Duk Kwan, which was always refered to as TSD

Hwang Ki the founder of what what is now known as TSD, claims to have studied subak and Tae Kyon (older arts). He traveled to Northern China in 1936 as a railroad worker, where he says he learned Chinese Boxing, although it might have been an early version of Karate, because China was under military occupation at the time, and the Japanese military would have never allowed the teaching of Kung Fu.
In Hwang Ki's latest book "The History of Moo Duk Kwan" He states that the Knowledge and understanding of the majority of the forms taught within TSD came from reading Japanese books on Okinawan Karate (presumedbly the "Karate Kyohan"- 1935-Funakoshi)
In 1958 the Mu Duk Kwan separated from the rest of the Kwans to become Tang Soo Do, a karate style distinct from TKD. Hwang Ki is known as an exceptionly skilled martial artist, no matter how he was instructed.

This will have to be a 2 parter, Family problems have just popped up that I have to take care of. I wiil finish at a later date with further information.
The majority of this information was taken from the article;
"Tae Kwon Do: An Historical Appraisal" by Robert E Dohrenwend, Ph.D.
It is spread over 4 issues, Dragon Times, volume 22 and 23, Classical Fighting Arts, Issue 1 and 2.

umm......what he said.........:ohyeah:

[bobO]

umm......what he said.........:ohyeah:
He's the best!:king:

[Dotanuki]

PART II

So as a recap, we have Korea occupied by the Japanese from roughly 1870 to 1945. (not a pleasant experience)
Let me say that Shotokan karate in the universities during the 30's was extremely militaristic, and the training would be considered cruel and vicious by todays standards. Those that went throught the training were some tough numbers.
After the war (WWII), Korea was split into North and South, just as Germany was. The Soviet Union controlled the North, while the U.S. held the South along the 38th parallel. Due to the cold war the split became permanent in '48'.
Korean War -1950 to 1953, North invades South (read your history books on this one because it is becoming another forgotten conflict). The war basically ended in stalement (nothing changed much)
From this point 1950 to 1987, the Korean government went through constant change politically. From military dictators to various corrupt governments untill reforms in '87'.
(all what I'm saying is a brief synopsis, it is really complicated)

How this affected Korean martial arts. For over half a century the only access the Koreans had to martial arts was Japanese. (Karate {mainly Shotokan}, Kendo and Judo). After '45', they were free to pursue the arts in their own manner, but all they now knew was only the Japanese arts.
At the beginning, they pursued the arts as is, the way they were originally taught.
But just as the Japanese modified Okinawan Karate to suit their temperment, the Koreans gradually changed theirs also.
Korea had just gone through a civil war, had previously threw off the yoke of oppression and was going through a period of military dictators.
Enter General Choi Hung Hi. Who said; "In 1955, I created the Korean Martial art of Taekwon-Do"
General Choi would change Tae Kwon Do into what it is today. Gen. Choi originally trained under Funakoshi, eventually making 2nd dan (Shotokan at this time only went to 5th, 5th being Funakoshi) so this was quite an accomplishment.
Gen. Choi would combine all the Kwans (more than the originals) in Korea into one organization, (except the Mu Duk Kwan) after participating a government coup that resulted in a dictatorship. At the beginning all the forms were Japanese Shotokan Forms and were even called Kata.
It was during this time they starting creating new forms to make TKD more Korean. They went from 'tuls" to poomse, hyungs, etc., it was at this time that they started the claims of antiquity. The martial arts political scene at this time was a Macheivellian nightmare, one change after another.
This was the time the history of TKD changed, the government wanted martial arts to be something the Korean people could be proud of. The memory of the Japanese occupation was a hatefull memory. When you are a dictatorship, it is easy to change history.
You just say it is so!!
The change of TKD from a martial art to a martial sport was done to put it in the Olympics. In 1988 Taekwon-Do was demonstrated at the Olympics held in Korea. In 2000, it was admitted as an Olympic sport. The claims of it being an ancient art helped put it in the Olympics, and furthered the fabricated claims across the world.

This is just a brief overview for those that don't know the true history. Due to the politics (martial and political) in South Korea, both Won Kuk Yi and Gen. Choi are non-entities in todays TKD world, with their names never mentioned anymore.
For those that want to know more I suggest the article mentioned in the part1 post. For those interested in accurate and hard to find histories of the martial arts, I would like to recommend the "Classical Fighting Arts" most of my information came from articles written in this magazine.
This in my opinion is the best MA magazine in existence.
If you go to our SOM books section of threads, you will find a link there.

[FrozenIpaq]

Thanks for the history Dotanuki, much appreciated. I've looked for books at my library but have come up with none detailing Tang Soo Do - mostly found TKD articles and books. I look at Tang Soo Do as a more traditional art while Tae Kwon Do has more modern influences.

One observation I've made in Tae Kwon Do, and I'm sure others have as well, is that there is a very wide array of foot techniques that can be used and used effectively. These fast-moving kicks really doesn't appear in Shotokan karate does it or many other martial arts?

One thing I wish I had the chance to do would be to practice traditional Shotokan karate but after the first class I took it seemed like it was from an entire different planet! So after that class I really couldn't understand how that was the considered by some to be the "basis" for most korean arts.

[Dotanuki]

You should probably define what you mean by "basis"... It is true that TKD and Tang Soo Do have katas/forms identical to Shotokan karate - but does that define it as having a basis for TKD/TSD, I personally don't think so.

Shotokan karate is one of the oldest Japanese martial arts still practiced today and will have had its influence on all arts that came after it - TKD/TSD included. I wouldn't go so far however as to state that Shotokan is the basis for TSD/TKD, that's just a bit ignorant as no book or internet source I've read on TSD can give a clear basis/origin of the art.

I hope that after my posts, you have learned more than just a "history" lesson!
When one mocks the older established arts,(in this case, Shotokan) they often come across as looking very foolish. A true martial artist would never make adverse comments about a martial art he knows nothing about, it is rude and shows that one has not been taught martial arts courtesy.
Also if you don't know who you're talking to, it is also quite rude to call someone "ignorant". I'm surprised your instructors didn't teach you this.
Courtesy and respect, should be the first thing any student learns!
You never know who that person sitting next to you might be, this is why you should be respectfull and courteous to everyone!

[FrozenIpaq]

I hope that after my posts, you have learned more than just a "history" lesson!
When one mocks the older established arts,(in this case, Shotokan) they often come across as looking very foolish. A true martial artist would never make adverse comments about a martial art he knows nothing about, it is rude and shows that one has not been taught martial arts courtesy.
Also if you don't know who you're talking to, it is also quite rude to call someone "ignorant". I'm surprised your instructors didn't teach you this.
Courtesy and respect, should be the first thing any student learns!
You never know who that person sitting next to you might be, this is why you should be respectfull and courteous to everyone!

How many time must I say it? I never mocked the art of Shotokan but rather the instructor teaching it at my school. You may tell me to respect my elders and my seniors in the art I know little about, but when the teacher demphasizes hips (saying not to use hips) when you infact told me that the art emphasizes hips I'm a bit reluctant to accept anything that instructor says as true. He was in it for the money more or less from what I could see (working in a place that was provided free of charge)

[Dotanuki]

You were the one that made sure we knew the teacher was a 6th Dan, maybe you are the one using exagerrated hips movements that are wrong.
Over-exaggerated use of hips telegraghs movement and leads to over extension.
Many styles do not use the same hip movements prevalent in Shotokan looking styles, especially the Internal ones and many of the real older styles. If you have ever seen a proper one inch punch, you would know this.

What really bothers me is the attitude you and many others have, that if you don't pay a lot of money, it must not be good.
BTW, teaching an elective in college (Karate), is not not something you do for the money! (won't get rich there!)
I learned old time Judo from an old retired ex-army instructor that taught in a youth center for free, I can't even begin to tell you how many learned from him that are considered master instructors (in many various arts) today.
One of my closest friends has been teaching in a inner-city youth center for over 20 years, any money he gets goes back to equipment or uniforms for the disadvantaged. He don't pay rent either.
As a matter matter of fact, it is the big commercial dojos that everybody likes to give all their money to, where you get the most sub-par instruction.
Very often in these schools, you see intermediate students teaching beginners, and advanced students teaching intermediates and beginners, under the guise of teaching them to be future instructors. This is just the instructors being too lazy to teach their own classes and all to often leads to students learning wrong and passing bad information down to the future. But hey, if you're paying a hundred a month (plus charged for everything else) it must be good, right!
If the school got a hundred little kids punching in the air, a few teenagers, and even fewer adults, this is not a serious dojo!
But if it costs a lot of money, so it must be good.
Many of the old time dojos, that teach weapons, vital point arts and actual combat techniques, don't have children and very rarely will you ever even see a teen-ager unless he is one of the instructor's sons.
In a old time dojo you will see more blackbelts than students, just the opposite a commercial dojo.

Remember, in the martial arts the amount of money you pay does not necessarily translate to the quality of instruction you recieve!
What is that old saying "Let the buyer beware!"

[Travis Morris]

How many time must I say it? I never mocked the art of Shotokan but rather the instructor teaching it at my school. You may tell me to respect my elders and my seniors in the art I know little about, but when the teacher demphasizes hips (saying not to use hips) when you infact told me that the art emphasizes hips I'm a bit reluctant to accept anything that instructor says as true. He was in it for the money more or less from what I could see (working in a place that was provided free of charge)

Some times my instructor says or does things I do not understand. Then once I understand he says "See Travis, there is a method to my madness."

Perhaps your lack of understanding Shotokan brought you to this assumption about the instructor. A lot of times, when learning new techniques and concepts, you are told to do things out off the norm, like not use your hips.

I've been told not to use my hips in Judo training many times. Just focus on foot work and posture. I was learning basic "mechanics" of the technique. Once that was accomplished, the hips were easily added.

I am beginning to think this is what the Shotokan instructor was trying to accomplish. A lot of the Japanese arts are very similar in their methods.

Just a thought ;)

[FrozenIpaq]

Some times my instructor says or does things I do not understand. Then once I understand he says "See Travis, there is a method to my madness."

Perhaps your lack of understanding Shotokan brought you to this assumption about the instructor. A lot of times, when learning new techniques and concepts, you are told to do things out off the norm, like not use your hips.

I've been told not to use my hips in Judo training many times. Just focus on foot work and posture. I was learning basic "mechanics" of the technique. Once that was accomplished, the hips were easily added.

I am beginning to think this is what the Shotokan instructor was trying to accomplish. A lot of the Japanese arts are very similar in their methods.

Just a thought ;)

A good thought, however I talked to him after class asking him why he demphasized hips and he told me that he doesn't teach it that way - he says that the motion of "winding" up the hips takes away from the speed of the technique and that the correct way to do it is to do it from the shortest path from point A to point B.

This was something I could not get used to and as such did not take classes after that - I was trained to use hips and when told not to I just didn't want to toss away all my training previously.

@Dotanuki - me pointing out his rank was a way of saying that there are some people that I see at a high rank that may not necessarily know what they are talking about when it comes to the art they teach. As far as it being to earn money as an elective - it's an elective as a class however there's a portion where if you did not take the class for credit you would have to pay for the class - a hefty amount if I recall correctly. I just hate seeing martial arts being taught as a business. Also I never indicated that their might be a relationship between money spent and the quality of teaching?

[Dotanuki]

@Dotanuki - me pointing out his rank was a way of saying that there are some people that I see at a high rank that may not necessarily know what they are talking about when it comes to the art they teach.

Once again you are making assumptions you cannot prove. Because you cannot relate to this instructor does not mean he does not know what he is talking about. Most of your statements on this Forum have been wrong (Shotokan being an ancient art for one).
Just as in politics, when people are wrong or can't prove their point, they immediately seek to tarnish others.
I have not seen anything you said which proves he does not know what he is talking about, only from your limited point of view.
Also, just because you are charged extra for not making it an elective, does not mean the instructor gets this money. Colleges do this (not the instructor), because students registered for taking these classes count toward grants. Etc., they try to discourage non-students, because they get no credit for it.

[HeadCheese]

I have been training in Iwama-style Aikido for over 18 years now. www.NorthTexasAikido.com

My instructor is Russell Alvey, Sensei
His instructor is Patricia Hendricks, Sensei (under whom I have also trained)
Her instructor was the late Morehiro Saito, Sensei (under whom I have also trained)
and of course, his intructor was O-Sensei

[Dotanuki]

It must have been quite an experience to actually have trained with Saito Sensei, do you have any interesting stories to tell us (me anyway) of training with him?
BTW, I take it, you are in some of those pictures, in your Aikido's school's website?

[bobO]

I also would like to hear of some of your experiences. To train with someone trained by O-Sensei, OH MY!

[HeadCheese]

Heh... I had to go look at the pictures to see if I showed up in any of them. I'm usually the one BEHIND the camera at these events, so I'm as rare as evidence of BigFoot. Since my wife (pictured a few times with Pat Hendricks, Sensei) took the majority of the pictures in the Park, I managed to show up in some of the shots during my Nidan test. I'm the fellow with the black ... thing ... on his head. Nothing worse than a sunburn on your bald-spot, let me tell you. I'm also in some of the really blurry indoor shots from the New Year's training pics. I'm the bald guy in the hakama. (I REALLY need to put some new pictures up!)

As to Saito Sensei, I do have a few notable stories. My favorite however was during one of the Seminars in Denver, hosted by Aikido Nippon Kan and located in the Denver Buddhist temple. At the end of each day of training, Sensei would ask (via his translator, of course) if there were any questions. Traditionally, nobody would ever ask, preferring, I suppose, not to intrude any further upon Sensei. I, however was unclear on a minor piece of a technique (a variation of koshinage from the shihonage form) and muttered something to that effect to Miles Kessler, Sensei - a friend, instructor and former uchi-deschi of Saito Sensei - who was sitting next to me. Miles is a something of a joker, and knowing how it would put me on the spot, made me raise my hand as he announced loudly that I had a question. There was an almost audible intaking of breath from the hundreds of Aikidoka from around the world who were gathered there to see that a lowly white-belt (actually a Nikkyu or Ikkyu at the time, I think - but we don't wear belts other than white or black in our organization) would DARE directly ask a question of Saito Sensei.

Sensei took a moment to mention that mine was the first question in some time he'd been asked at a seminar, and that it shamed all those who came to learn, but left with unanswered questions. Mortified by the attention, I was then called up to get a personal answer and demonstration of the technique in question.

As you might expect, there were a lot of people asking questions at the end of the second day... ;-)

For the balance of the seminar, I got a great deal of personal attention not only from Saito Sensei, who made a point of checking on me, but also from many high-ranking instructors from around the world, curious who I was that I had somehow caught the notice of a Shihan.

[Dotanuki]

Thanks for story, I just knew you were going to have some interesting ones! :ohyeah:

On a separate note, everytime I see your Avatar I keep expecting to see "Killroy was here!" written underneath. ;)

No offense. :)

[bobO]

Yes, Thanks for sharing. Stories with a message, gotta love it! More Please.

[HeadCheese]

Our dojo hosted a small demonstration today for a group of students from a local teaching hosptital. Pictures have been uploaded here: CLICKY (http://gallery.me.com/head.cheese#100099&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=43)

Toward the end of the demo, we brought out the live tanto for tanto-dori techniques. Since we treat all the wooden weapons as though they were sharp, we don't have to worry about doing anything differently with live blades. Just the same, I never forget to say a quick prayer before the shiny stuff gets swung around...

As usual, I am the follicularly-challenged fellow in the shots.

[Travis Morris]

Well, I am finally back on the mat after breaking my arm in Sept. Shooting for my Nidan in Jan. Very excited!

[Tony Ferrill]

Right on,Travis!Keep us posted,glad you healed up!
Tony

[Travis Morris]

Well my BJJ instructor told me to take a few more weeks.

I rolled Saturday and was fine. Rolled Monday and was fine. Woke up on Tuesday and my arm looked like a sausage!!!

So my instructor said he'd rather have me back strong than have me back on and off.

He's a really great guy. I am very lucky to have an instructor like him.

[Firehand10k]

Since I'm at the source I've signed up for traditional Tai Kwon Do classes. Its going good so far but boy do I need to improve my flexibility. Coordination would help to but I think I'll ge better with practice.

[bobO]

Firehand! We miss you bud! To you and all the guy's and girls doing there duty, you're in our hearts, and we thank you guys most of all. Have a great Thanksgiving!

[Jason Moore]

Firehand! We miss you bud! To you and all the guy's and girls doing there duty, you're in our hearts, and we thank you guys most of all. Have a great Thanksgiving!

Hear hear! Here's to you and all of our soldiers! :lager:
Happy Thanksgiving buddy!

[Tony Ferrill]

What they said,Firehand.T

[Taygrd]

Since I'm at the source I've signed up for traditional Tai Kwon Do classes. Its going good so far but boy do I need to improve my flexibility. Coordination would help to but I think I'll ge better with practice.
Congrats, Thanks for serving us over there. I hope you have a good Thanksgiving, and we look forward to having you back here.

[jwilliams]

Good to hear from you, have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[Firehand10k]

Thanks guys and happy thanksgiving to everyone back there too. I also am finally making a bit of progress toward finding a Gumdo school. I asked my Tai Kwon Do instructor about it and his first question was if I'd keep going with tai kwon do. When I assured him I would he said he'd get the contact info for me and let me know next week. Looks like my schedual is filling right up.

[Travis Morris]

My Nidan test date has been set. 1/17/09

This will be my 2nd Nidan :karate:

[Dotanuki]

Let's see Tony is fighting his match on the 17th!

Travis is testing for his second, second degree!

And it is Torawashi's birthday also!

Looks to be a very interesting day! :ohyeah:

[Firehand10k]

The 17th will also be my first Saturday back in the States for a few weeks.
And along the right thread I made yellow belt in Traditional Tai Kwon Do and the Army's Warrior Tae Kwon Do both last week. Still a long way to go but hey I can kick over my head now.

[Tony Ferrill]

Welcome home Firehand,enjoy your time here.Congrats on rank advancement,too!Tony

[Torawashi]

Firehand, congratulations brother, on your advancement and on the halfway mark of your tour; Dotanuki, thanks for remembering the birthday......if I get enough cool loot I'm thinking of having another one in April!=))

[Taygrd]

The 17th will also be my first Saturday back in the States for a few weeks.
And along the right thread I made yellow belt in Traditional Tai Kwon Do and the Army's Warrior Tae Kwon Do both last week. Still a long way to go but hey I can kick over my head now.
Glad that you are Stateside. Nice to have your around, you have been missed. Now can you send any elves my way?=))

[bobO]

Firehand, welcome back to the world. Congrats on all your achievements! Also in a real fight, never kick over your head.=))

[Firehand10k]

Never say never if I fall down and his knees are higher than my head I'm kicking for them anyway.

[bobO]

LOL yes, in that situation, you will be forgiven.

[Dotanuki]

Today is the 17th! I would like to congratulate Travis on his second nidan!=D>

And welcome Firehand back home, his first weekend back since being deployed to Korea! :ohyeah:

[Travis Morris]

Today is the 17th! I would like to congratulate Travis on his second nidan!=D>

Thanks Dotanuki!

It was rough. 4 hours with a fever and a stomach bug thats been going around up here. But I didn't stop. It was a great experience and I can't wait for Sandan!

[bobO]

Travis, Congrats that's a lot of hard work! I had that freaking bug, can't imagine doing a test with it.

[Dotanuki]

Don't forget Travis is also coming off a broken arm not too long ago!
A true example of "Bushi no Kokoro", or heart of a warrior!! :ohyeah:
Also a a true example of Heiho/Hyoho (combat strategy), his opponents were so terrified of his stomach virus and flu, it made his technique look all the better.
Nothing worse than having someone toss their cookies on you during a test!! =))
Although knowing Travis the way I do, and the spirit he has always exhibited, the minute he showed up for the test, he had already passed in his instructor's opinions!! :ohyeah: Progression is a daily thing, not limited to a test, it is how a person progresses on a daily level that makes them great!

[Taygrd]

Travis, Congradulations. I am in awe of those who obtain those goals that require a personal determination that excels the common mindset that is so prevelant today. Good job!!

[prabshiro]

aikido , bokken/jo

[RobbyDoom]

I practice the ancient art of "you don't know who you're f&*#ing with" :) :)

[photopro818]

Travis Congrats :beerchug:

Robby =))

[Dotanuki]

I practice the ancient art of "you don't know who you're f&*#ing with" :) :)

Interesting,

I hear that response a lot, from people who usually only make it through one martial arts class, before they quit.
photopro,
Since you think, it is so funny, you must be of the same mind.

[photopro818]

Interesting,

I hear that response a lot, from people who usually only make it through one martial arts class, before they quit.
photopro,
Since you think, it is so funny, you must be of the same mind.
You are right i did quit martial art class after 3 days it wasnt for me. Thats why i took boxing for 3 years.

[Travis Morris]

I practice the ancient art of "you don't know who you're f&*#ing with" :) :)

Its good you practice that, cause YOU really don't know who YOUR f&*#ing with ;)

Travis Congrats :beerchug:

You are right i did quit martial art class after 3 days it wasnt for me. Thats why i took boxing for 3 years.

Thanks Photo!

Yea, some people don't like traditional MA. I myself am moving more towards MMA. Mostly for physical reasons like cardio and strength. Conditioning wise they are great. I do however think that some traditional MA are more mental. Mind conditioning if you will.

[Stitch]

I'm a 2nd degree black belt (or sash as I study Chinese styles) in Wing Tsun and Shui Chao.

I studied Shui Chao (Chinese grappling) under Sifu Matt Mollica for about 4 yrs.

And I'm currently studying Wing Tsun (Chun) under Sifu Benny Meng and I'm about 3 yrs in.

I've tried to enter the local MMA circuit, but they won't even consider me because I'm studying Wing Tsun and it utilizes too many "illegal" techniques.

[DragonGuardian]

I've studied several years on and off of some form of Kenpo (american mutt, really) before I decided to do independant training in Shinkage Ryu. I don't know much about the sword techniques, as I figure that's far better learned by an instructor. And I know a little bit of bo staff. I'm unfortunately not able to use my punching bag anymore as being bolted into the ceiling rafters didn't treat them kindly. So now I need to figure something else out.

I do some traditional marksmanship (40' recurve bow) which is definately good for judging distance and upper body strength/posture...although a little more dangerous. Never again will I leave my bow against it's stand while I go to retrieve an arrow that missed (I had a bad time to sneeze) cause, gettin havin' a friend put an arrow in your arse by mistake hurts. Even if it is field point.

[RobbyDoom]

Interesting,

I hear that response a lot, from people who usually only make it through one martial arts class, before they quit.
photopro,
Since you think, it is so funny, you must be of the same mind.
I guess you didn't see that film. Clearly my post was merely humor. I guess some sticks are further up then they seem.

[Dotanuki]

I guess you didn't see that film. Clearly my post was merely humor. I guess some sticks are further up then they seem.

Once again, your smart mouth sarcasm exposes you for what you really are!!!

[bobO]

Just found this. This is my one true love. Can anyone guess the style?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08oT2zoJRmI

[illmade2]

I practice the ancient art of run fast and duck....I fought in the streets as a kid, short fuse, bad temper, I survived some people I knew didn't, I grew out of it. I can still protect myself and those dear to me thats enough for me, it aint pretty but it works. Have a great deal of respect for those who study MA it's just not for me...

[bobO]

I blocked his left with my nose, his right with my chin and his knee with my groin. He then gave up and I took lessons.

[Monkeybear]

I am actually waiting on a call from Grandmaster Cheng Jin Cai. I just called them asking about the school and was told that he would call me back since I have no expierence. He teaches Chen Tai Chi. I am interested in becoming healthier, focused and awesome.

Ofcourse if he tells me classes are once a week and cost $100 each I may have to search out another school.

[DragonGuardian]

I don't think "becoming awesome" should be a goal. It should be a focus on disciplined and more focused/healthy. I'm fairly certain if you told a grandmaster "I want to become awesome" they'd promptly show you the door. My 2 cents.

[Monkeybear]

He called me back and we talked a little. I will meet with him next Saturday.

On the internet I try to be jovial, relaxed, casual and accommodating. Internet forums are conversational in nature except that our words must be given without the nuance and unspoken communication that goes along with face to face communication. I like to assume that anything anyone says online was said with the best of intentions and I try to find the most generous interpetation of their words.

I ask that you please be generous in your interpetation of my use of the word "awesome". Perhaps I meant it as a joke or maybe I just think the word means "to excel at life". Anyway, I think we could all stand to go a little easier on each other.

[Travis Morris]

I think any reason to start training is good enough!

[DragonGuardian]

In that case, perhaps "excel at life" may have been better. I'm not trying to be harsh, I've just seen waaaay too many people my (college or just post-college) age group study martial arts "Becasue it's awesome" which generally translates to "I want to look cool doing it and dont give a **** about anything behind studying martial arts." So my personal experience has made me biased against that term for martial arts. I wasn't trying to solo you out, though your intentions seem exponentially more pure than most people I know. No hard feelings, aye?

[Monkeybear]

None at all. I appreciate the discussion here and that the members of this forum take martial arts seriously.

[Monkeybear]

I met with Grandmaster Cheng Jin Cai today and I signed up for Tai Chi clasess. I will be going once a week. I came in as he was finishing a Jian routine in front of three of his students. It was pretty awesome.

Here is a video of him. There are quite a few of them under Jincai Cheng on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vfGq431fM

[bradg]

Just joined the forum yesterday.
I train in Haidong Gumdo.

[Taygrd]

Me too:) Welcome.

[bobO]

Me too:) Welcome.HA, I knew it, I just knew it.:sumo:

[Taygrd]

:> Que pasa BobO

[John Smith]

Hrmmm Well where does one begin. I know I am going to offend at least one person , and I appologize for that.

I started studying Jung Sim Do, which is a style of Tae Kwon Do, I did this from about 7th grade until my senior year, I made Brown belt, but I do not hold much respect for belts, as any one can get one. My sensei had two belts White and Black, and I must say his belt looked almost white to me except for the black frays in it. Now here is where I am going to offend some. I feel that the Martial Arts as we know it is so watered down and full of politics that it is no longer an Art form but a how much can you pay for the Black Belt. I have been to schools that claim that you can get your Black Belt in 2 years. This is absolutle crap, the schools today are afraid to teach, I mean my Sensei used to put me through the ringer each and everyday, as he taught me one technique a day and I had to master it by the next week, He first taught me defensive blocks. And if he hit me it hurt like hell. And so on and so on.

Ok sorry rambling My second Martial training was in Ninjutsu which I studied in Kettering Ohio under Stephen K Hayes, but by this time the art was so commercialized that no real training was happening just wanted to look cool. How ever I did find an actual instructor who was brutal and I learned a ton from him, I studied for 8 years.

My third Martial training was Aikido while I was in the military which I was not able to attend offten.

And then coming full circle I got involved in Jung Sim Do again for the last 8 years, on an administrative perspective. The current Sensei is Master Garry Holman who was trained by Master Chung from Korea who is the President of the Jung Sim Do Federation.

So this is how I know how much politics are in the Martial Arts today. And they water it down to make a profit.

Now do not get me wrong I have a great respect for the Arts of yester year. So please forgive me everyone I have an opinion on what the Martial Arts should be.

[Taygrd]

I started out with TKD then got sick and stopped. I have just started gumdo and hopkido and have a new instructor. Dot eplained to me a long time ago about MA and the level of training some have compared to others. I have a commercialized version of these classes. I wish I could train with Dotanuki, however there are too many miles and difficulties to do that. I take these classes knowing that they are not what I really need and have already progressed past what they are teaching. The sword, in any culture, is a art and warrior skill. Hand to hand is great, but the guy with the sword wins, and the guy with the gun truely wins. I have been taught in gun and hand, the sword I still feel is a vital skill. I have been trained in Highland swordskills, rather blunt and brutal-but it is my heritage. I feel that a maker must understand the art of sword fighting to make a a warriors sword. I still have a lot to learn in art and life. Early morning ramblings:)

[wolfhound]

Going back to the original question: Do you practice any martial arts?

I've done:

Kenpo Jutsu (Ungraded)
Tai Quan Do (Yellow Belt)
Kendo (Ungraded)

I'm currently doing:

Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido (Mudan)
Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo (Ikkyu)

I'm still ungraded in Iaido as I failed my Ikkyu but I passed my Ikkyu in Jodo.

[bobO]

I started out with TKD then got sick and stopped. I have just started gumdo and hopkido and have a new instructor. Dot eplained to me a long time ago about MA and the level of training some have compared to others. I have a commercialized version of these classes. I wish I could train with Dotanuki, however there are too many miles and difficulties to do that. I take these classes knowing that they are not what I really need and have already progressed past what they are teaching. The sword, in any culture, is a art and warrior skill. Hand to hand is great, but the guy with the sword wins, and the guy with the gun truely wins. I have been taught in gun and hand, the sword I still feel is a vital skill. I have been trained in Highland swordskills, rather blunt and brutal-but it is my heritage. I feel that a maker must understand the art of sword fighting to make a a warriors sword. I still have a lot to learn in art and life. Early morning ramblings:) This is why you are my buddy and have my respect.;)

[wolfhound]

I started out with TKD then got sick and stopped. I have just started gumdo and hopkido and have a new instructor. Dot eplained to me a long time ago about MA and the level of training some have compared to others. I have a commercialized version of these classes. I wish I could train with Dotanuki, however there are too many miles and difficulties to do that. I take these classes knowing that they are not what I really need and have already progressed past what they are teaching. The sword, in any culture, is a art and warrior skill. Hand to hand is great, but the guy with the sword wins, and the guy with the gun truely wins. I have been taught in gun and hand, the sword I still feel is a vital skill. I have been trained in Highland swordskills, rather blunt and brutal-but it is my heritage. I feel that a maker must understand the art of sword fighting to make a a warriors sword. I still have a lot to learn in art and life. Early morning ramblings:)

Very true, I understand this a lot more since i started Iaido & Jodo.

[the blade master]

got a black belt first dan in origami:karate:

[Mako]

I'm still ungraded in Iaido as I failed my Ikkyu but I passed my Ikkyu in Jodo.
Don't go giving up on Iaido buddy.
You're the only guy I know of who has posted on a British sword forum that he seriously intended to take up a JSA and actually did so...and the first who has admitted publicly that he's failed his first grading on any sword forum which I've read.

Honesty, worthy of rep IMO. ;)

[wolfhound]

The truth is Mako, You will eventually fail a grading, it's what you do after it that counts.

Do you either walk away and say "The art isn't for me" or boycott it altogether, or do you dust yourself off and say "I wasn't at my best on the day" and try again another day.

Failure is a very hard lesson to learn in martial arts and IMHO it's best to learn it at an Early stage than at a late because then you can just say F**K it and try again next time instead of feeling like you've wasted your Sensei's time and showed up the entire Dojo when the only person you failed is yourself.

As i said it is a very hard lesson to learn but when you learn it you will loose some of your fears and I have found since i have learned that lesson my Iaido has drastically improved.

[Mako]

Good man. ;)

[bradg]

have already progressed past what they are teaching
Taygrd,
If they aren't teaching you at a rate that corresponds with your learning the forms and techniques, what are they doing? Are you locked into the curriculum based on the calendar rather than how fast you learn? Gumdo has years many years' worth of things to learn, just as all MA do. You should be progressing based on your own learning rate.

[wolfhound]

Taygrd,
If they aren't teaching you at a rate that corresponds with your learning the forms and techniques, what are they doing? Are you locked into the curriculum based on the calendar rather than how fast you learn? Gumdo has years many years' worth of things to learn, just as all MA do. You should be progressing based on your own learning rate.

Seconded, Even though I didn't pass my first kyu my Sensei's have started to introduce us to the higher Kata's in Iaido (Shoden & Chuden).

[Taygrd]

Unfortunately it is the only sword class in a 60 mile radius of my home. I enjoy the hopkido since it does not require much kicking, however the gumdo does not impress me a s a serious sword class. The original instructor was fine, I am not sure who they are going to replace him with. I have always excelled at self study so I was hoping to hone my skills with an instructor-I will wait it out and see.