Stuck Mekugi

[Yaso]

I just purchased the 9260 Oniyuri from Cheness, and I've been having a slight problem. The bamboo mekugi in the top came out fine, but the brass one on the bottom is firmly lodged in place. It doesn't want to come out without a fight. I have the Cheness Kaze as well, and the brass one in there never gave me any trouble. I started with my little brass hammer, and to no avail, moved up to a full sized one. All I have accomplished is bending my brass hammer and pin. I've done as much as I can strength wise, and I don't have a vice grip handy. Is there anything I can do short of melting butter on my brand new tsuka?

I'm going to try holding a blow dryer up to it for a bit, although I have a feeling that the Uber Mekugi will only expand before the tsuka making it more difficult...

[Brian Brazier]

Assuming that the mekugi was installed correctly, and your removing it correctly, I would give the hairdryer a go first

[bobO]

The brass will expand before the steel,defeating the purpose.how about ice?One of those kits for removing warts?Even a can of butane ,tip pushed against the mekugi.Needless to say you would do this outside.Well you get the idea.BE careful.See if you dad has a nail set.(nail punch)

[Yaso]

The brass will expand before the steel,defeating the purpose.how about ice?One of those kits for removing warts?Even a can of butane ,tip pushed against the mekugi.Needless to say you would do this outside.Well you get the idea.BE careful.See if you dad has a nail set.(nail punch)

My dad actually runs a dive shop and has every tool known to mankind. Too bad he's 300 miles away right now. As far as tools go, all I have is the $60 worth of basic tools I purchased when I moved out, so I don't have anything fancy.

Way ahead of you with the cooling thing. I just heated up the tsuka and sprayed the mekugi with liqiud tetrafluoroethane to rapidly cool it in the hope that the mekugi would shrink faster than the wood. It still didn't work...

[mattbowen]

Yaso; I would call or write Paul @ Cheness and see what he has to say, I am wanting to buy the Oniyuri but have been wondering about that brass mekugi.

Matt

[Yaso]

Yaso; I would call or write Paul @ Cheness and see what he has to say, I am wanting to buy the Oniyuri but have been wondering about that brass mekugi.

Matt

The one from the Kaze never gave me an ounce of trouble. There just seems to be an ungodly grip in this one pin...

[Brian Brazier]

You could drill it out with a smaller drill bit, then the rest should be easily removed

[Justice]

Sometimes Cheness makes some decisions that puzzle me. Why use brass for a mekugi? The Japanese have used bambbo and hardwoods for over a millenia... seems to me if it works, it works.

Drilling it out may be the only way. I had to use a tungsten carbide drill bit to take out a steel pin used in a permanently attached Kris Cutlery katana.

[Dotanuki]

Yaso,
You must have patience.
If you don't have the right tools to do the job, you risk wrecking everything.
Much like removing the tire lugs on your car by using vice grips.
Do not use any kind of heat or cold, it would absorb into your tsuka first and ruin it.
I use to argue this, with guys in the shop. Heat contracts, cold expands.
When you heat something with a hole in it, the hole gets bigger. The hole gets bigger because the molecules are contracting [getting closer together], by them getting closer together it actually makes the hole larger. When you freeze something it expands [think ice cubes], many times this expansion will cause something to pop out if it has somewhere to go [ice cubes out of tray effect] but I wouldn't count on it. Don't forget this same effect would happen to your tsuka's wood and wrap.
First get the proper tools, then try removing it. If that don't work, Brian and Justice are right, you will probably have to drill it out. If you have never worked with tools, that might be harder than you think. You might want someone to show you how, or do it for you. But if you try it yourself, remember to center punch first, to find the center, and use a smaller bit like Brian said.
I know you use brass rivets on knive handles because of the chemical compatibilty of the metals. But why you would want to use brass on a removable piece is beyond me also.

[bobO]

Going to have to disagree ,Dotinuki.Water expands when frozen because it incompressible.Metal expands when heated,contracts when frozen.Use to be a precision shear operator,had to know this stuff when your tolerances are +or- 5,000ths.

[Dotanuki]

I just knew I was going to get into this arguement, I used to argue this point with an old time fabricator every day. Why do concrete sidewalks buckle in the winter time then? Isn't it expansion? He used the same argurment of water. To prove my point, to him and now you. I had made a brass chandelier, it had a outer ring from which hung decorative crystals, I barely missed in my calculations and it was too tight.
Now if I'm right and metal contracts when heating, when I heat up the ring the molecules will get closer together, the inside diameter will get bigger, as the outside diameter will get smaller. The entire ring is compressing. Needless to say, after the heating, it fit easily over the fixture. After it cooled and returned to it's normal state, it was as if it was welded together, it fit that good. So how do you explain that?
Let me see if I remember his arguement? Oh Yeah! He was Hungarian, they are never wrong and they know everything!!=)) I worked with more than one and heard this from all of them.:-< ;)

[jwilliams]

Ow, you guys are giving me headache. If that is true and heat will shrink metal, then why couldn't you heat the center post and have it shrink and slide off the outer ring? Why do you put hot water on a stuck lid on a jar to loosen it up? By shrinking it with heat you are actually expanding it? Heat actually causes expansion (molecules getting farther apart) doesn't it? Think popcorn or a pressure cooker or gunpowder. Is this one of those zen riddles?

[Yaso]

Not to fuel the fire, but I am going to have to disagree too. Water is relatively unique as far as expanding while frozen, at least, thats what my chemistry teacher said. Other than that I'm pretty sure that metals behave in a normal way. Cold temperatures make the metal contract, and atomic movement decreases. That process of contraction continues all the way until absolute zero (The point at which all movement stops). Adversely, if something is heated up, the molecules space out and generally become more active.

Heres something I just googled:

Question
I am learning that the particles in a matter expand when heated and contract when cooled. But how come when you put water in the freezer to make ice cubes, the ice expands? Shouldn't the water have contracted because its being cooled?

Answer
Water is really strange stuff, because of the very strong hydrogen-oxygen bonds. One odd thing is that water is most dense at 4 deg C -- that's why lakes freeze from the top down; the warmer water sinks.

Every substance expands when you heat it -- because the average space between the atom's nuclei increases when the atoms have more energy (vibrating faster, more heat). So water DOES expand when you heat it, like anything else -- it's only when it freezes and crystallizes that the weirdness (expansion of ice) happens.

The reason water expands when frozen is the crystalline structure that forms, and those strong O-H bonds. The hydrogen atoms have a very strong attraction for the unbonded electrons in the nearby molecules. In an ice crystal, each oxygen atom has it's own 2 electrons, and grabs hold of 2 more electrons from the water molecule next door. And so they crystallize into a big hexagon shape, which takes up more space than the same molecules do when the water is in liquid form. An ice crystal's form is called a 'network structure.' Same molecules, but takes up more space.


And the link:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Science-Kids-3250/water-expand-freezer.htm

Note:
It may be on a "science for kids" website, but it answers the question just the same. :)

[bobO]

On the way to work ,I'm thinking,did I just disagree with Dotanuki?All I can say is I can't multi task for beans.

[Dotanuki]

On the way to work ,I'm thinking,did I just disagree with Dotanuki?All I can say is I can't multi task for beans.

Hey, Anyone can disagree with me all they want, I might be wrong. The more I think about it, it gives me a headache too! If I am wrong, please explain to me how what I did worked! If I remember correctly, I think at one time I used to put pins in metal by heating the holes. I would drill out the hole smaller, I would then heat the area around the hole, the slightly bigger pin would now fit. I would leave it to cool, and it would stuck like I glued it. Now explain why that happened.
I'm not too worried about any of this though, because I know Mako going to give me the right answer! Probably from Wikipedia, and ask me why I didn't just look up the proper answer in the first place!=))
If I am wrong, I am never telling that to the old Hungarian, [he never did admit he was wrong]. He retired over 15 years ago, and just called me last month to see how I'm doing [after 15 years!!]. On his last day, I bought him a 12 pack of beer and a box of cigars. I said let's celebrate your last day with a beer, he told me to get my own, this was his!=P

[bobO]

First off I'm not stubborn and nothing is going to change my mind about that,ever=)).I think I'll use making steel as an example,When you heat iron,you expand the molecular structure of the metal.Allowing the intro of carbon,when rapidly cooled this locks in the carbon(cause it shrinks).How about making wagon wheels,they heat the metal ring(THE TIRE)before pounding it on,when it cools it shrinks,thus tightening the whole structure,similar to what you did with your chandelier.My best friends dad was a machinist for Brookhaven labs,spent many a summer night talking about this kinda thing.Or loosing a frozen lug nut,heat that sucker up it expands,off it comes.Or the time I screwed up a couple of sheets of very expensive T-60 aluminum,came in the shop cold,did my first cuts took it to the inspector every was fine,after lunch took another piece over,not good(NASA is funny about this).Why because the sheets had warmed up changing the dimensions(they got bigger).They yelled at me ALOT.:dwarf:Yaso,Great post.You get REp for that one laddy!

[Dotanuki]

Yeah, Yaso, Thanks a lot!
At least with the science for kids, I can understand the answer.:)

[bobO]

You mean I did all that typing and thikin for nuttin??

[Dotanuki]

No, Bob-O, I understand why water freezes and expands, I still not sure my brain is comprehending the other! Truthfully, right now it is giving me a headache just thinking about it. Maybe later, when my spirit is in a more comprehending mood, I will come back to this topic. I do appreciate all the input though, thanks guys!:)

[Jason Moore]

Awesome post Yaso, Thanks!

[Brian Brazier]

is it out yet??????

[Yaso]

is it out yet??????

Nope. Its jammed in there pretty good.

I sent a few emails back and forth with Mr. Chen, and he assured me there is no trick to it. I'm giving it a rest for a few days until I think of something new and get around to doing it. I suspect I just need to apply elbow grease where necessary.

[Travis Morris]

All I can say is this is why I would NEVER buy from Cheness Inc again! I bought 1 9260TH shirasaya from them. I was lucky enough to trade that for a PK,PPK, and a Pract Pro Kat. I would not advise anyone to buy from them, nor would I until they make some serious changes to there line.

I will say I love the kissaki on there swords.

[goose710]

Travis
I don't doubt you had a bad experince with cheness, but i've had the opposit. I have the kaze kat and couldn't be happier, maybe i'm easy i don't know i'm some what of a novice in these things. What is you complaint with that sword? I've cut with it (and some stuff you shouldn't cut,(ie) trees) it's still tight, and unmarked.
If i were to find fault with their swords it would be their tsuka's a bit light wieght and not fully wrapped with same' and tuska ito is cotton not silk witch i like better. The finish polish on the kaze is a bit nicer than the rest of their lines because of the clay hamon maybe that's the diff?
I'm a ford pick-up truck man and wouldn't have any other so maybe it's just a personel kinda thing?
goose710

[Yaso]

Travis
I don't doubt you had a bad experince with cheness, but i've had the opposit. I have the kaze kat and couldn't be happier, maybe i'm easy i don't know i'm some what of a novice in these things. What is you complaint with that sword? I've cut with it (and some stuff you shouldn't cut,(ie) trees) it's still tight, and unmarked.
If i were to find fault with their swords it would be their tsuka's a bit light wieght and not fully wrapped with same' and tuska ito is cotton not silk witch i like better. The finish polish on the kaze is a bit nicer than the rest of their lines because of the clay hamon maybe that's the diff?
I'm a ford pick-up truck man and wouldn't have any other so maybe it's just a personel kinda thing?
goose710

Haha, so I'm not the only one chopping up 3-4" thick branches with my Kaze. I was amazed that not even the surface of the blade was blemished afterwards, because they were some pretty lousy cuts from my end.

Just out of curiosity Travis, what exactly was wrong with your sword?

[RedZorak]

Cheness has high tsuka failure rate. And since the tsuka is just as important as the blade, I would think twice about buying from them unless you plan on remounting it. Tsuka issues aside, they do produce a fine blade.

[Yaso]

Cheness has high tsuka failure rate. And since the tsuka is just as important as the blade, I would think twice about buying from them unless you plan on remounting it. Tsuka issues aside, they do produce a fine blade.

Roughly how much would a redone tsuka run me if I already have the fittings? From the looks of this mekugi, I might have to.

[Travis Morris]

Cheness has high tsuka failure rate. And since the tsuka is just as important as the blade, I would think twice about buying from them unless you plan on remounting it. Tsuka issues aside, they do produce a fine blade.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Altough I am not a huge fan of their blades either

Travis
I don't doubt you had a bad experince with cheness, but i've had the opposit. I have the kaze kat and couldn't be happier, maybe i'm easy i don't know i'm some what of a novice in these things. What is you complaint with that sword? I've cut with it (and some stuff you shouldn't cut,(ie) trees) it's still tight, and unmarked.
If i were to find fault with their swords it would be their tsuka's a bit light wieght and not fully wrapped with same' and tuska ito is cotton not silk witch i like better. The finish polish on the kaze is a bit nicer than the rest of their lines because of the clay hamon maybe that's the diff?
I'm a ford pick-up truck man and wouldn't have any other so maybe it's just a personel kinda thing?
goose710

There was nothing wrong with my blade. I just think that you get what you pay for, and for what you pay, there is better quality out there (Hanwei, Ryumon). I have not heard of many horror stories from these forges, however the list goes on and on with Cheness.

Also this bothered me: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=84740&highlight=cheness

Its a disscusion about the heat treatment on the Kaze. Mr.Chen himself says that there is not HT at the kissaki.

In short, Cheness cuts way to many corners. And coming from a student of Kendo!? You would think they would want to produce a good blade. Bugei(Hanwei) does, they are students of JSA, and like I said, you get what you pay for.

[bobO]

Roughly how much would a redone tsuka run me if I already have the fittings? From the looks of this mekugi, I might have to.Cheapest I found so far was 300$ done up right.Cheapest tsuka core alone was 75$.Wish I had bought the freaking Kaze like I was going to!~X(

[goose710]

Yaso
Before you do anything drastic with the mekugi, go to a friend, hardware store or the like and pick up a "drift punch" about the size of the mekugi or alittle smaller, with the sword well placed, punch that sucker out! i can't imagin you not being able to punch it out easily with that set up. support the tuska fore and aft of the mekgui hole so that you have a stable platform to hit it out, maybe have a friend hold the blade (wrapped in a heavy towel)as you work on it.
I don't claim to be an expert, but i've punched pins from machinery for many years, and if your platform is tight all the punch's energy goes to the pin and she will move. weather you want to put it back in is your call.
if you need further clarification i'll draw you a crude picture of what i'm talking about. i don't mean to sound like i think you're stupid just i don't know if i'm getting the right idea across to you. i any case let me know how you make out.
goose710

[Jason Moore]

I had a loooooooong talk with Fred lohman today and I will be offerring customization/repairs through him. I will announce more on this shortly.

[bobO]

Ok,I'm stoked,But what about us poor folk.Can't put a 450$ tsuka on a 300$ sword.At this point I'm thinking of selling all my production swords,buy one good custom?Or just stick with a bokken,there just tough to cut with.

[Brian Brazier]

I had a loooooooong talk with Fred lohman today and I will be offerring customization/repairs through him. I will announce more on this shortly.

Very interesting :-?

[Jason Moore]

Sorry Bobo, looks like pricing will remain about the same as I can't expect to beat the guys prices who will be doing the work for me. I will be offering alot of his furniture and items such as ito on my site for anyone who wants to do their own work. :)

[bobO]

I hear ya bro,still it's nice to know we can get the really good stuff right in our own back yard now!

[Yaso]

I had a loooooooong talk with Fred lohman today and I will be offerring customization/repairs through him. I will announce more on this shortly.

Thank You

[RedZorak]

I had a loooooooong talk with Fred lohman today and I will be offerring customization/repairs through him. I will announce more on this shortly.

Great news, I look forward to this.

[tanukimario]

Wooh awesome! What other parts will you be getting besides the ito?

[Jason Moore]

Basically, everything. Menuki, seppa, tsuba, ito...etc

[Yaso]

Basically, everything. Menuki, seppa, tsuba, ito...etc

Once again, Thank you.

[goose710]

Yas0
I recieved my Cheness Kaze Wac and changed the tusba , i was able to easily remove the brass mekugi no problem have you gotten your's out yet?
goose710

[Yaso]

Still not out. I just need to find someone with a vice grip nd I'm confident I can get it. I made a contraption out of wood that could possibly work. I just need the vice.

[bobO]

Yaso, watcha gonna do wit them vice gripes?

[Yaso]

http://www.maj.com/gallery/DarkRonin03/Random/plan.png

It should work, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't.

[Brian Brazier]

Ummmmm, you could damage the tsuka doing that. Why do you need to remove the tsuka so badly? Why not send it to Paul and have them remove it? The $30 it will cost for shipping both ways is nothing, compared to replacing it

[tanukimario]

Ooh nice diagram! ;)

[Yaso]

Ooh nice diagram! ;)

Haha thanks. It took me about 10 minutes in MS Paint. You'd think I'd have better things to do on a Friday night though...

Ummmmm, you could damage the tsuka doing that. Why do you need to remove the tsuka so badly? Why not send it to Paul and have them remove it? The $30 it will cost for shipping both ways is nothing, compared to replacing it

Although I'm sure my ungodly contraption would work, that is probably a good idea. Well, I just sent Mr. Chen an email and I'll see what he says tomorrow when I check my email.

[bobO]

Haha thanks. It took me about 10 minutes in MS Paint. You'd think I'd have better things to do on a Friday night though...



Although I'm sure my ungodly contraption would work, that is probably a good idea. Well, I just sent Mr. Chen an email and I'll see what he says tomorrow when I check my email. Great idea, take it from me you don't wanna have to buy a tsuka for your sword!! Why to think out of the box,Yaso!:sword:

[Jason Moore]

Yaso, that diagram was magnificent!

[bobO]

Yaso, you've taken us this far,now I gotta know how this turns out. So keep us posted. Don't make me drive up there with a hammer!

[Yaso]

I'm sending it back to Mr. Chen. He is going to remove the brass mekugi and include a couple of extra wooden ones just in case. He went above and beyond what I was expecting, and was in general extremely helpful. I haven't sent it back yet though, I need a box. Boxes tend to have a very short lifespan when I'm around, so it could be up to a week before I get it sent out. I'll let you guys know when it's all said and done.