A sampling of my broadswords

[Torawashi]

Here is a sampling of a part of my broadsword collection. I have them arranged by Oakeshott typology from X to XVIIIa, left to right. They are also to scale by blade length. From left is the Hanwei/Tinker Pearce 9th Century Viking sword, viking type X; Hanwei/Tinker Pearce Norman sword, type X; Valiant Armoury Signature Edition Castile sword, type X; Hanwei Sir William Marshall sword, type Xa; Valiant Armoury Signature Edition Crusader sword, Type XII, Valiant Armoury/Atrim Practical longsword, Type XIIa; Generation 2 12th Century Norman sword, Type XIIIa; Angus Trim "Heavy" Type XIV sword (one of a kind by Angus Trim); Windlass Steelcrafts Type XIV Arming Sword, Type XIV; Generation 2 Henry V sword, Type XVIII; Hanwei/Tinker Pearce Longsword, Type XVIIIa. All are "battle ready" fully functional and sharp, with scabbards.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/MyOakeshottTypologyTypesCard.jpg

[goose710]

Tora



Holy Moly !!! you got a bunch of em!!!!! very nice
da gooseman

[Maynar]

Yowsah! No need to fret about zombie invasions in the Torawashi household, methinks. :hahaskull:

[zentredi]

nice bunch of choppers there Tora

[the blade master]

hi jim
thats us level pegging so far;)i reconise a few of them and very tasty
they are too if you ever get bored with any i'll give them a good home for sure:Praying: please please please=P~
just love that tinker pearse long sword guese i'll have to start raking down the back of the settee for a few
pennies

[andysoard]

=p~ =p~ =p~

[the blade master]

=D>=D>=))

[Torawashi]

hi jim
thats us level pegging so far;)i reconise a few of them and very tasty
they are too if you ever get bored with any i'll give them a good home for sure:Praying: please please please=P~
just love that tinker pearse long sword guese i'll have to start raking down the back of the settee for a few
pennies

Thanks to all for the kind comments.

Mick; that's just a portion of my Euro swords. I'll try to post some more pics soon. My friend I can think of no better home for my blades than in your hands if I were to walk that final trail to the happy hunting grounds. :)

[the blade master]

hey jim
i could be wrong but didnt the vikings put their dead chiefs
in a longboat with some kindling with a dog at his feet his favourite
sword in his grasp at least you get to take one with you to valhala set fire to it sent it out to sea or somthing like that?:flaming:

[Torawashi]

hey jim
i could be wrong but didnt the vikings put their dead chiefs
in a longboat with some kindling with a dog at his feet his favourite
sword in his grasp at least you get to take one with you to valhala set fire to it sent it out to sea or somthing like that?:flaming:

....As long as I'm dead first.....=))

[illmade2]

Nice selection you have there Tora I got a birthday coming up...

[Mako]

Great collection Jim, that's a whole lot of quality steel you have.

Thanks for posting the pics.

[bobO]

very nice, that's a whole lotta steel there. I just got to get me one of them. I've always liked that two handed style of fighting ( dagger and sword). What would be the best deal for the buck for that style of fighting swords. Is the sword the main gauche?sp if so I think Jason just got some of those in.

[Torawashi]

Thanks very much for the kind words gentlemen!.....

bobO; the Main Gauche is the dagger....literally "Left Hand" in French. That style of fighting was generally done in the 16th and 17th century. There is one type of main gauche that is single edged and the spine is toothed like a comb, for trapping and breaking sword blades. The main gauche was primarily a parrying weapon but of course could be used for thrusting and cutting as well. :)

[bobO]

Great,Thank you. What sword would be in the other hand? Was this style effective? Can it be learned visa-vie books? See what you started.

[illmade2]

Great,Thank you. What sword would be in the other hand? Was this style effective? Can it be learned visa-vie books? See what you started.

You're looking at a cut and thrust sword or rapier, you can also carry a buckler in your off hand instead of the dagger. both were fairly effective fighting styles, but when you start taking sword and dagger styles you are covering alot of time periods and a lot of styles.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/i33/i33.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=GnE9AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_slider_thumb#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Torawashi]

Great call Illmade!....you beat me to it. bobO; below are some examples of Cut and Thrust swords, Main Gauches, and a buckler. The buckler is a small shield usually about 12-15" in diameter.

European Cut and Thrust sword
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/EuropeanCutandThrustSwordbevel.jpg


Munich Cut and Thrust sword
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MunichCutandThrustSwordBevel.jpg


Ring Hilt Main Gauche
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/ManGaucheRingBevel.jpg


Hand Guard Main Gauche
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MainGaucheGuardBevel.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MainGaucheGuardHiltBevel.jpg


Blade Breaker dagger
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/SwordBreakerDaggerBevel.jpg


Buckler, front and back showing grip
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/BucklerFrontBevel.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/BucklerGripBevel.jpg

[illmade2]

You pretty much covered it Tora.
One thing about bucklers they were used to deflect not catch blows, and you can think of them as the worlds biggest set of brass knuckles. When you were out on the town you would hang the buckler over the handle of you sword and as you swaggered down the streets it made a unique sound, hence the term swash-buckler.

[bobO]

Tora great pic's. Ill great links, I knew I'd be running into that 1:33 thing sooner or later. you've given me quite a bit of reading, between this and the stuff you gave me last time. Just saw something on the boobtube about sword and buckler, does look effective. Thank you gentlemen. Got to go look for rapiers.

[Torawashi]

Tora great pic's. Ill great links, I knew I'd be running into that 1:33 thing sooner or later. you've given me quite a bit of reading, between this and the stuff you gave me last time. Just saw something on the boobtube about sword and buckler, does look effective. Thank you gentlemen. Got to go look for rapiers.

bobO; Always a pleasure to help any way I can, and by the way, it's great to see you posting regularly again.....I missed your wit when you weren't able to get to a computer. Look for side swords rather than rapiers. Rapiers were generally civilian fashion accessories and were a bit too long and unwieldy (generally speaking). That's why they developed into the smallsword, much lighter and easier to wield. I have read that soldiers of the period, basically 17th to maybe mid 18th century, considered the rapier to be un-masculine and preferred the broader double edged blades of the side sword. Below is a picture of the Hanwei "Renaissance Side Sword" that I am going after next. I'm hoping to acquire one soon if I can work a trade with my local sword pusher. =P~

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/images_SH2203_1_l.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/images_SH2203_2_l.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/images_SH2203_3_l.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/images_SH2203_4_l.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/images_SH2203_l.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/Side-sword1.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/Side-sword3.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/Side-sword4.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/Side-sword5.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/Side-sword6.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/Side-sword6.jpg

The blade, to the end of the fuller, is unsharpened for parrying......beyond the fuller it is razor sharp for cutting and the point is vicious, for thrusting. A beautiful weapon! I'm wheelin' and dealin' for it today! Wish me (good) luck!! http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/SMILIES/5436.gif

[the blade master]

jim
i hope you do get that piece its a nice bit of kit belive me

my rapier and main gauche
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9469/20090701mypictures0003.th.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/20090701mypictures0003.jpg/)

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/850/201003290003.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/201003290003.jpg/)

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5215/201003290002.th.jpg (http://img571.imageshack.us/i/201003290002.jpg/)

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8519/201003290004.th.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/201003290004.jpg/)

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3771/201003290005.th.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/201003290005.jpg/)






http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2160/20090701mypictures0005.th.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/20090701mypictures0005.jpg/)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9469/20090701mypictures0003.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/i/20090701mypictures0003.jpg/)

[Torawashi]

Thanks Mick. Wow! Great blades!! That's a beautiful rapier. I like the lines of the hilt. And the scrollwork on the the ring hilt main gauche and its scabbard are impressive. Absolutely gorgeous pieces Mick. =P~ Nice Oscar, pretty Oscar, fetch daddy's swords to ol' uncle Jim, that's a good doggie B-)

[bobO]

Tora, good luck. Thanks for the info and pic's. I like the look of the Munich cut and thrust, heck I even like the name. yeah it's nice to have access to a puter again, though I'm only half as witty as I used to be. Blademaster, figures you'd have that rig just sitting around,LOL.

[Torawashi]

I dood it!!! I closed the deal for the Renaissance sword.....not only that, but 2 sabers as well.....The Windlass American Revolution Saber and the Cold Steel 1796 Light Cavalry Saber! All I had to do was trade 4 swords I didn't have any use for anyway. They'll be here Thursday if the good Lord's willin' and the creek don't rise.... :headspin:<:-P

[illmade2]

Tora let me know what you think of the Windlass, I've been looking at it since it came out but just can't make up my mind.

[Torawashi]

Tora let me know what you think of the Windlass, I've been looking at it since it came out but just can't make up my mind.

Roger, wilco Illmade; I'm adding a new dimension to my collection, to round it out more and to add new interests in blades. I've always been a fan of sideswords, (Solomon Kane et al) and sabers (civil war, revolutionary war, indian wars) but haven't had any in my collection. Once had a cheap saber that I bought in Gettysburg before I knew anything about what I was doing. Below are the sabers:

American Revolution Saber by Windlass Steelcrafts
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/flag_gadsen.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyOlNickHorizontalinScabbardonRedBe.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyOlNickHorizontalRed.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyOlNickHiltRightonRedBevel.jpg

1796 Light Cavalry Saber by Cold Steel
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/15thKingsLightDragoonsLogo.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyBlucherandScabbardLargeCrossedonR.jpg

The 1796 Light Cavalry Sword was used by the British and the Prussians at Waterloo. It is said by sword historians to be "The best cutting sword ever to be mass produced". Lots of history on this saber to be found online.

[the blade master]

sadly thats one thing i dont have is a decent quality saber
still its early days yet

[Torawashi]

sadly thats one thing i dont have is a decent quality saber
still its early days yet

Mick; since you're across the pond I don't think Jason would mind if I post this URL: http://www.militaryheritage.com/ Lots of good military gear and sabers and accessories. I believe they're located in Canada.

[bobO]

Roger, wilco Illmade; I'm adding a new dimension to my collection, to round it out more and to add new interests in blades. I've always been a fan of sideswords, (Solomon Kane et al) and sabers (civil war, revolutionary war, indian wars) but haven't had any in my collection. Once had a cheap saber that I bought in Gettysburg before I knew anything about what I was doing. Below are the sabers:

American Revolution Saber by Windlass Steelcrafts
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/flag_gadsen.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyOlNickHorizontalinScabbardonRedBe.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyOlNickHorizontalRed.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyOlNickHiltRightonRedBevel.jpg

1796 Light Cavalry Saber by Cold Steel
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/15thKingsLightDragoonsLogo.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/jimnpatsy/Swords/MyBlucherandScabbardLargeCrossedonR.jpg

The 1796 Light Cavalry Sword was used by the British and the Prussians at Waterloo. It is said by sword historians to be "The best cutting sword ever to be mass produced". Lots of history on this saber to be found online.
You know I'm a direct decendant of Marshall Nye.:evilbat:Really.:duel:

[Torawashi]

bobO; that's something to be proud of!!

Illmade; in answer to your request, the Windlass American Revolution Saber came today and I can Highly recommend it. Very nice quality, well tempered flexible blade and balanced just right. The carved wood grip is especially nice. Sabers are the Windlass forte; they produce ceremonial swords for today's military and also manufacture some of Cold Steel's swords.

[Mako]

I love sabers too, unfortunately we can't buy the modern made ones any more.
As an aside, I watched an antiques auction prog' on TV yesterday and there was a 19th century saber, talwar and what looked like an artillery sword that went for approx. $500 for all three. =(

[illmade2]

Thanks T. I'm liking it more and more, I guess the only thing that's been holding me back is I already have three saber like swords as it is..
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/illmade2/swords004.jpg

[zentredi]

Tora nice catch , I've handled the windlass and your right it's a sweet handling blade, my only gripe with it is the wood grip can be a little slick if your hands are sweaty but then again thats why they wear gloves when fencing with "real" sabres. nice additions to your collection =P~ =P~

[willrichtor]

I've been looking hard at that Sidesword myself Tora. I have an old CAS Iberia Side Ring sword I've always been very fond of, and the sidesword there seems like the logical graduation from that old beater to me. I'm a bit concerned over reports of the hollow plastic handle, but it shouldn't be hard to bed it like a riflestock, at which point it should be as good if not better than a wooden handle.

I'm eager to hear your thoughts on it, as it just seems TOO nice a sword to pass by at the price.

[Torawashi]

Illmade; that's an impressive group of blades my friend. Looks like an Indian Tulwar at the bottom, then Russian saber and is that a Swiss saber above it? A sweet falchion and then a Tai Chi, a bastard sword can't tell for sure the blade type but looks like it could be an Oakeshott XVIIIa, and a type XIV sword. Great collection.


Zen; thanks very much for your kind words. Yes, the saber handles very well.


Will; I'd be interested to know where you heard the grip is of hollow plastic. The one I have is wood covered with a silken material and wire wrap. It is extremely quick and sharp. I would refer you to this review for info. http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/side-sword.html I had been looking at this sword for a while when I saw this review and that clinched it for me. I am very pleased with this sword. I highly recommend it and if you're considering buying it, you won't be disappointed. You're right Will, it does seem too nice for the price, I don't know how they do it for that money, but it's an outstanding sword! Think Solomon Kane.

EDIT: Will I just read a post by a member over on My Armoury.com. I use that site for info, they have some great sources and images, but you have to read between the lines on their forum. The gentleman who said that most of CAS/Hanwei's offerings are 99% rubbish, has his head firmly up his a$$ and locked; my opinion of course. I have several of Hanwei's swords, both Japanese and Euro style, and they are all fine fully functional swords. Of course I shop and research carefully before I buy, but a statement like his is just pure nonsense. He also says the same thing about Cold Steel, and all my Cold Steel products have been outstanding. Remember we are talking about the Albion Swords worshipping crowd who believe that if it's not exactly the same as a sword in a museum, it's trash. I have no use for the elitists and find they are often completely wrong in their assessments.

[the blade master]

illmade hi
i should know this but its name escapes me now but the fourth one down whats its called please

[Torawashi]

illmade hi
i should know this but its name escapes me now but the fourth one down whats its called please

Mick; Pardon my butting in, but it's called a Falchion. :)

[illmade2]

Tora, don't know about the Oakeshott Type that was never my strong suite, the saber is Polish 15th century, and the only sword I ever had custom made for me.
Mick.that sword was marketed as a Maciejowski Chopper because it was pictured in plates from that bible. A pretty common design through out europe probably because any decent black smith could hammer one out.




http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf3/otm3va.gif

[the blade master]

its making my neck twich just looking at it=(

[willrichtor]

Tora, I'm not sure which gentleman you were talking about, I didn't note anyone who said all that bull about Hanwei being 99% rubbish, perhaps because I just simply do not even register foolishness of the sort.

But it is pretty well documented across the net that this model sword has generally had a high impact molded plastic handle, hollow on the inside and held in place by pressure from the hilt and pommel. There are numerous threads detailing processes by which owners have bedded the handle with various materials, the most popular of which seems to have been JB weld. Recommendations were made to coat the tang and threads with release agent so that future dismantling of the hilt would be possible.

Yours would actually be the first model I have heard of that had an actual wooden handle that was not custom made by the owner. Saw a thread on that too :D The other notable thing about that sword is that a lot of the models, early models I presume, though it could be a product of spotty quality control, a problem the world round in nearly every industry, and no slight on Hanwei so far as I'm concerned, is that the tangs on many of them displayed threaded rod that had been scarf welded to the bulk of the tang.

Now, I know for a FACT, despite many ignorant assertions to the contrary by people who just don't know any better, that that particular method of tang construction has been traditional and adequate for as long as swordsmiths have had the capability to do it. Welded on tangs can be seen throughout the evolution of the sword, and when done correctly, they are even stronger than a solid tang, it's just physics. I've grown up around welders and pipefitters my entire life and one thing I've been taught is that a properly done weld is STRONGER than the surrounding material, although that fact causes it's own problems at times because then the surrounding material becomes the possible point of failure.

The problem was that some of the swords seemed to have a sort of shoddy scarf weld with inclusions and voids. One fellow seemed to be pretty upset because his tang bent. Then I was very amused at the fuss that followed the pictures of the bent tang and the concurrent assertions from forum members such as:

I'm not suprised the tang bent. COme to think of it, should tangs be tempered? You'd think that after a hard blow, the tang's pliability should matter and tangs shouldn't just be a hunk of weak steel.

and

I think the proper way to do a tang (though there are a lot of people here who know more than me) is to not harden the tang much, but to temper it well. That way it will flex as much as needed without taking a set, but won't ever crack from stress or impact.

Which I find completely ridiculous and I like to give those folks the benefit of the doubt that, had they actually thought about what they were saying before just blurting it out in a moment of disgust over seeing a plastic handle, they would have realized how ridiculous it was too. They were concerned about the tang bending because it was not supported along it's length by the handle. HOW exactly they came to the conclusion that lateral forces were exerted on the tang within the handle is beyond me. The part that really gets me is the talk about the pliability of the tang. They seem to understand that tangs are not hardened. They note that tangs should be pliable, but then turn around and say they should not take a set! Come on! Complete lack of understanding, or momentary brain fart?

I dunno, but as long as I've known about knives and swords, I've known that tangs are relatively low in hardness so that 1)they will bend without breaking, and 2)remain easy to shape for mounting and decorative filework. How steel is supposed to be pliable without bending and taking a set is beyond me, I wouldn't call that pliable, I would call that springy, which tangs ARE NOT supposed to be. Imagine a spring hardened tang exploding in your hand on a bad hit because the smith wanted it resist taking a set! =))

Oh wait, that's not really funny.

Anyway, I drone on about this stuff. I saw the negative things about the sword that people had posted and it didn't deter my interest. Your particular model has really piqued it. I was wondering, Tora, since yours has a solid handle, do you find that the sword's center of balance is further toward the hilt than you would like? You've got lots of fine swords to compare it with. I'm sure the handling is like a dream, but does it feel as though it lacks blade presence, so to speak?

[willrichtor]

Illmade, while I find it hard to believe myself, though possible to attribute it(through pure speculation on my part) to the weapon being of a cruder fashion, maybe iron with a carburized edge, a throwaway item like today's machetes, the story that I have always heard is that that particular design is in fact unique to the Maciejowski Bible. No historical examples remain to corroborate the artwork contained therein, and some theorize that the sword, along with many other instances of artwork in the bible, including but not limited to armed "warrior" nuns, may have in fact been the product of the creator's own vision.

Me, personally I have trouble believing that swords of that type didn't exist. I think that there is too much emphasis placed by the elitests that Tora mentioned earlier on raising the sword as museum piece to the level of archetype. I think that it's foolish, completely ridiculous to look at a sword like, say, the Svante Nillson Sture or the sword of Gustav Vasa, and say "this is how swords were made." The fact is most swords weren't of that quality, weren't preserved for future generations, and probably weren't of any higher quality than a Tramontina machete, which would attribute for the lack of surviving examples.

While I applaud the efforts of folks like Ewart Oakeshotte to study and publish works about swords, I also don't find a lot of sense in establishing the typology that he did, because it has led the majority of otherwise fairly sharp enthusiasts to TRULY believe that anything that falls outside this man's relatively narrow(in the grand scheme of things) exposure to to the swords he was lucky enough to study is somehow historically inaccurate.

[Torawashi]

Will; first off let me say that I find the majority of your comments spot on and well considered. The grip on my side sword is in fact wood that is sandwiched around the tang. I don't know what kind of wood it is. Maybe my particular sword is from a newer generation or batch from Hanwei. I have noticed that manufacturers have been taking note of consumer complaints as well they should since it's ultimately in their own interest. As to your question on the balance, I find the sword to be very pleasing in the hand, feels very lightweight and "alive". Horizontal, oblique, and vertical cuts are extremely quick and easy to recover from and thrusts are very very accurate. I think that this type of "cut and thrust" sword needs to have the balance very close to the hand, as this one does, as the emphasis is on speed and quick maneuvers and directional changes. The blade presence is definitely there; this type of sword has a broader and shorter blade than its cousin, the rapier. when wielded properly, with the forefinger over the guard, this sword simply dances through the air. a truly "live" blade.

As to your comments on the falchion that illmade has displayed; I don't know if I'm telling you something you may already know, but I have read that the Maciejowski Bible was illustrated in Medieval style because in the High Middle Ages they had no idea How people dressed and looked and what their weapons looked like in "Biblical times", so they did their illustrations on the then current styles of dress and weapons. I'm not sure if there is a particular name for this style of falchion, but it is a single edged weapon with an, obviously, peculiar tip. The standard falchion is supposedly the forefather of the saber. The falchion in the Maciejowski Bible is a definite type, I have seen it illustrated in other Manuscripts, however, as you stated, I know of no surviving examples to date.

As to your comments on Ewart Oakeshott's typology, I agree with you wholeheartedly on the subject of the "elitists" and their opinions of swords that fall outside the typology. Oakeshott himself has listed a number of swords that simply defy categorization, the instances I cite are from "Records of the Medieval Sword". I believe he came up with his typology simply to make it easier to categorize recovered Medieval swords and help to establish dates and eras for them as opposed to setting rules for latter day "experts" to judge the accuracy of modern re-creations by. I do think that the "average" sword, at least the blade, was of very good quality. After all, who would want to be the swordsmith who forged a faulty blade if the warrior survived and returned to express his grievance! Anyway, I always enjoy discussing the Western sword and I welcome your comments and observations.

[illmade2]

Ok let me rephrase, Swords of that type, meaning single edged, asymmetrically shaped, with a broad tip, ie. a falchion, were common across Europe, not necessarily that sword exactly...
as far as cruder weapons I know for a fact that they do and did exist. A number of years ago I had the chance to go to Germany, my brother in law in the service there took me to a number of smaller collections where there were swords of lesser quality housed along with the show pieces, this does not mean they were any less functional than the show pieces simply less polished.
Oakeshott did a excellent job creating a scholarly work classifying the major classes and styles of swords, and it give students of the sword a great reference to look to. I doubt if the man himself would say that classifications were the end all and be all of the story.
Unfortunately many people do the same thing with Euro swords that they do with Eastern swords and take the exceptional examples as the norm and don't take into account that swords as well as any other tools are dictated by need and ability to manufacture. If you are going to war you need weapons, it doesn't matter if they are made by a master craftsman or local handyman as long as they WORK.

[Torawashi]

....Well said, brother Illmade......

[willrichtor]

Tora, I agree completely with what you said. The only point I have any contention with is the part about hte average sword. And I wouldn't say that I believe that the quality of the average sword was poor, so to say, just that I think the level of what was acceptable in a working man's sword in that day and age does not gel with our ideas of what makes a good sword today.

I have been told by historians and smiths alike that the construction methods which began in the iron age, that of a simple iron blade with cutting edges carburized(or in exceptional cases for the time, welded on) by contact with the coal of the forge, continued nearly to the Renaissance, at which point mills and grindstones had taken over for the hammer and anvil as the tools of choice for the shaping of the profile of the blade. I was told that the great majority of swords forged through the dark and middle ages were of the Iron body/Carburized edge sort.

This does not indicate poor quality in my opinion. If this resulted in a poor or unacceptable level of quality in a soldier's weapon, then the practise would have been abandoned as soon as possible. But it didn't. The swords were sharp, they would cleave limbs, the thrust was relegated to short blades whose profile could withstand that sort of pressure, the bodies pliability ensured quick repair on the battlefield between skirmishes(literally stomped back to shape under the heel of the soldier's boot) and the manufacturing time was much shorter than what was needed for a true steel sword.

No, I don't disagree with you that the average sword was of very good quality. They did their jobs quite well, I should think. But I do believe completely that we have a very distorted view of what the average sword was, because in general, it was not the "very good" quality swords that survived from that time for study in the modern era, but the EXCEPTIONALLY good quality swords, and even they are not without flaws that have been harped on and improved upon by modern smiths in various ways.

Also, thinking about how I would go about something similar, I have a feeling that Oakeshotte's typology was done largely for his own benefit. When you've handled as many swords as he did, you have to do something to try and keep it straight in your own mind. It's the elitests who refuse to acknowledge anything of modern production which falls outside that typology that raises my hackles. It reminds me of seeing an experienced Go player finding himself at a complete disadvantage to a neophyte. The experienced player becomes unable to think or move outside the Joseki, the predefined set of moves that learned players adhere to, while the new player has no concept. The experienced player is unable to counter the moves of what he deems to be a chaotic opponent. Same in chess and poker.

To try too hard to put a concept to a thing is to destroy any chance of ever having a concept of a thing.

You've sold me on that side sword, I think. I always loved the pistol grip with the forefinger over the guard, so much that I tend to try it out on most any sword I can without risking a cut to my finger. That sword is absolutely perfect for an upgrade to my old Filipino CAS. The steel furniture, side rings, the asymetrical quillions bent at slightly different angles, even the pommel is like a much refined version of the one on my sword.

[willrichtor]

Well said indeed Illmade, and I meant no offense with the comments about the Chopper, just pointing out a story that has always spurned my imagination.

[illmade2]

No offense taken I simply wanted to clarify what I had meant to say..

[bobO]

:popcorn: Learning, good stuff.

[Torawashi]

Will; A "well said" to you as well. I have read that early in the iron age the iron blade was actually inferior to the bronze blade, as the iron blade would bend and take a set more easily. However, as time went by the quality did improve and in the "viking age" they began improving their blades with pattern welding iron and steel rods together. later, smiths discovered that heating the iron over charcoal fires produced steel (actually the ancient Roman swordsmiths knew this, but evidently that knowledge was lost with the fall of Rome). Some very high quality blades were produced during the Middle Ages, but not all the swords that have survived are the very best of the breed. According to the historians, there are some rivers with a certain type of mud that apparently does an excellent job of preserving the metal of a sword.

I'm glad you like the Hanwei Side Sword. If you purchase it I'm sure you'll be well satisfied. The only gripe I have, and it's a miniscule one, is that at the base of the blade at the guard Hanwei has seen fit to engrave their logo and "made in China". I used a Dremel tool to grind it off, and it's engraved fairly permanently, and then the Dremel polishing wheel to clean it up. Very minor and to some folks probably not a factor at all.

The sword bending with the foot actually took place during and prior to the migration era, roughly C. 300-700 AD and is thought by some historians to have been mistakenly identified by witnesses. One school of thought believes that what was actually taking place was the ritual destroying of a sword after it had been used in battle so that it could not be used again. Such a ritual was practiced by Celtic peoples. Another school of thought believes that at that early period, the smiths forged the swords very malleable intentionally so that they would bend and set under the stress of battle rather than break and that it was preferable for the warrior to bend it back into shape rather than have it shatter in combat. At any rate, nobody seems to know for sure.

I would tend to agree with you on the difficulty of the modern casual collector being able to realistically truly appreciate the Medieval sword. To the modern mind it's an anachronism, a work of art, a museum piece from a bygone age, perhaps a symbol of chivalry. In reality to put it simply, it was a weapon designed for young men to kill other young men. It was often an heirloom passed down through the generations as an honored weapon, or perhaps a treasured gift as presentation grade swords were often given to kings and dignitaries. Basically though, the sword has always been a brutal killing tool and not something to be nit picked over whether there is a "secondary bevel" on the edge etc. as with modern "elitists". I find it hard to believe that a warrior or soldier in medieval times, or any other for that matter, who is sharpening his sword prior to or after a battle would care whether his edge had a secondary bevel, as long as it was sharp enough to kill with. Your point about elitists is well taken.

[Torawashi]

:popcorn: Learning, good stuff.

Way to be bobO. I'm learning too.....over in the Tamahagane thread. This is fun:)

[zentredi]

Illmade; that's an impressive group of blades my friend. Looks like an Indian Tulwar at the bottom, then Russian saber and is that a Swiss saber above it? A sweet falchion and then a Tai Chi, a bastard sword can't tell for sure the blade type but looks like it could be an Oakeshott XVIIIa, and a type XIV sword. Great collection.Toras right that is a nice and varied selection of steel there Ill, especially the cossack sabre and the Mughal tulwar though I'm not really that into "horse" swords, and is that a Swiss or Polish style sabre?
Tora whats the POB on that side sword it's a great looking blade and being a more or less classical fencer as well a relative featherweight it looks like it would suit me better than a rapier which i find to be a little to long for me.

[illmade2]

T early iron age swords were in fact quite a bit inferior to their bronze counterparts, you basically have a product in it's infancy against one that had generations to mature...iron was cheap and abundant when compared to copper and tin. Also iron could be case hardened as apposed to cold working bronze which is time consuming. Bottom line it was cost effective.

[illmade2]

Zentredi it's Polish 15th century.

[bobO]

Well it's nice to see informed gentleman discussing in a civilized manner there viewpoints.illmade from top to bottom, I'll take 2 and 5, don't know what they are but they look effective. I have learned that a lot of these swords find there way into rivers, anyone know why. I can see a guy throwing one into a river after a battle and swearing never again, but there must be some other explanation.

[Torawashi]

Well it's nice to see informed gentleman discussing in a civilized manner there viewpoints.illmade from top to bottom, I'll take 2 and 5, don't know what they are but they look effective. I have learned that a lot of these swords find there way into rivers, anyone know why. I can see a guy throwing one into a river after a battle and swearing never again, but there must be some other explanation.

bobO; there were varied reasons. sometimes it was the victor disposing of the vanquished enemy's weapons, sometimes swords were thrown into bodies of water as sacrifices to the deity. some believe that this is where the legend of the Lady of the Lake came from.

[willrichtor]

T early iron age swords were in fact quite a bit inferior to their bronze counterparts, you basically have a product in it's infancy against one that had generations to mature...iron was cheap and abundant when compared to copper and tin. Also iron could be case hardened as apposed to cold working bronze which is time consuming. Bottom line it was cost effective.

The same was true with the introduction of copper as it replaced stone tools. Can you imagine at the end of the stone age, the domestic conversations that must have taken place?

Fred: Come on, cut you *@$# hunk of... WILMA! Wilma, what did you do with my obsidian steak knives?

Wilma: I threw them out Fred, to make room for the nice new copper flatware.

Fred: But this copper won't hold an edge through a single cut. How'my s'posed to eat my brontosaurus steak, have Dino chew it for me? Women! Always throwing stuff out!

[zentredi]

Zentredi it's Polish 15th century.thought so

[willrichtor]

A Hanwei side sword arrived for me earlier today. I like the maker's mark. If there's a better deal on the sword market then... well then I need one of those as well.

[the blade master]

wish i.d kept my side sword now

[Richard Johnson]

What did you say your address was?