Hanwei Raptor : U-no-kubi Zukuri Katana

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Hanwei Raptor Series :
U-no-kubi Zukuri Katana
Review by Marc Kaden Ridgeway------------- 8 April 2009

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Hanwei recently released the Raptor series, and I knew I had to get one , because I am a fan of U-no-kubi zukuri, and these mark Hanwei's first real departure from the shinogi zukuri sugata.

Historically, u-no-kubi zukuri is based on cut down pole arms. Usually seen on short swords, naginata were cut down to make wakizashi, and known as naginata naoshi. Today, there is much confusion , even among knowlegable people as to what exactly is naginata naoshi, unokubi , and kanmuri otoshi.

Basically a unokubi is a combination sword. The blade starts off as shinogi zukuri, and about 1/3 of the way transforms into the recessed shinogi ji form that is definitive of shobu zukuri, then, at the mune kado, transforms back into shinogi zukuri.

The slender mune , and swelling at the kissaki give it the name... which mean commorant's neck, because the sword resembles the shape of that bird.

UPS handled shipping very quickly, and the sword arrived within 24 hours of shipment. The sword ws well packaged in a styrofoam box within a box. No cleaning kit was included.


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Specifications

Nagasa-------- 28.5 in
Tsuka-----------13 in with fittings
Nakago---------12 in
Motohaba-------1.25 in
Sakihaba--------1.0 in
Motokasane-----6.5mm
POB----------------4.25 in from tsuba
Sori-----------------.7 in
Steel----------------5160 through hardened

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Aesthetics

Sugata is u-no-kubi zukuri with chu-kissaki. The yokote is geometric.

The polish is a dull satin, except for the burnished shinogi ji. It shoild also be noted that the polish has waves, ripples and dips in the surface. This Raptor is not to the same level of polish of any other Hanwei katana I've owned.

The Tsuka-ho is panelled in white samegawa and wrapped is katate maki stlye with black suede ito. The menuki are gold colored feathers.

The fittings all have a bird of prey theme, and the tsuba is quite attractive, in fact , its one of my favorite things about this sword
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The saya is stone finished in black matte , with black sageo.

My biggest complaint about the aesthetics is the way the mune "humps" at the kissaki... I've just never seen anything quite like it.


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Construction: Fit & Finish

Everything on the Raptor is solid and tight. The 13 inch tsuka has a full 12 inches of steel in it. The fittings are all tiight, the tsuba is peened to prevent lateral play. The habaki is well fit.

The tsuka is also fitted well, without the use of shims. A couple of taps unseats it from its snug seat, and then it slides of easily.

The sword fits securely in the saya , and does not rattle
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Handling Characteristics


The Raptor is nimble and fast. With 12 inches of steel in the 13 inch tsuka, and the strongly relieved shinogi ji, the feel belies the 2.7 lb. weight.

The sword feels light... almost insubstantial.

The balance point is about 4.2 inches from the tsuba.

Normally I dislike longer tsuka , but do not notice on the Raptor.

My biggest complaint is the tsuka shaping, or lack thereof.

The Raptor seems to be a throwback to the old days of Hanwei katana with axe-handle tsuka. The tsuka is THICK, and not at all tapered or waisted.


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Cutting


This was the most important aspect of the review for me, as the Raptor is being marketed as a tough cutter. SO I put it through its paces.

I started out with small bamboo and worked up. I believe I found the Raptors limit, at least in my hands, at about 4 -4.5 inch diameter bamboo stalks.

Having found this limit , I proceeded to make some UGLY cuts (on purpose I SWEAR) that would have set many blades. The Raptor came out unscathed, and still handled both wet and dry bottles after the bamboo.


I'm pretty impressed with the toughness and resilence of the Raptor.


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The Good , The Bad & The Ugly

Here in my critical section I like to point out the flaws, or whatever I just don't like. In this case, the sword is mostly damn fine for the price with just a few points I disliked , like the tsuka shaping, the end knot, the wavy polish and the mune at the kissaki.

Pros


Tough heat treat
Well Built
Good Cutter
Superb handling
Attractive tsuba
Geometric Yokote

Cons


"Axe-handle " tsuka
No hamon
wavy polish
strange (to me) mune-kado (koshinogi saki)

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Now for sake of comparison , I'm going to show a couple of comparison photos with a similar sugata sword, the Oni Forge Ryu , which is roughly twice the price. Even though the Ryu is a much more massive sword , you can see the Raptors much beefier tsuka.
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Conclusion


Hanwei developed and marketed this as an affordable and durable cutter , and I think they hit the mark. From the observations I've made, this is a light and nimble but tough as nails sword, that your really won't have to be fearful of. It cuts as well as the Tori, with a tougher edge and more resilent blade, and beats the PK hands down.

At the price , this is a fine cutter , and a good match for other through hardened cutters on the market.

While not much makes it outshine the alternatives like a musha class DF, it is a least equal , and small details can make or break the choice as to how to go.

I would reccomend this sword as a solid cutter , and well made piece.
Thanks for reading.

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[Taygrd]

Welcome to the forum. I must say that was an excellent review with great pictures. Thanks for posting that on a sword we are all interested in.

[andysoard]

Yes a good review indeed=D>. I think I saw a bit of hamon in one of the pics, but it could be my imagination,
and welcome to the forum.

[Kurubushi Kamu]

Thanks Very Much Marc and welcome to the Forum! If it weren't for your initial review of the M. Bamboo I never would have started collecting production swords. Looking forward to having you here. KK

[Torawashi]

Outstanding review! Beautiful presentation. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

[RobbyDoom]

Nice You are here as well Marc. I linked your review here a few days ago.
Nice to have your full review on this forum as well.
Welcome to the forum!!!

[69NINJA]

Great review and fantastic pics! welcome as well.

[Mako]

Coincidentally, it was just the other day that I read that same review on SFI...it was just as good there as it is here. :)

Great stuff Marc and welcome to the forum. ;)

[rayskin]

well done i had no idea the blade thinned out that much at the end

[bobO]

Marc you do the best reviews, Those stairs are almost famous, Thanks for sharing with the group! ps I think I've read every review Marc has ever done.

[Dotanuki]

Marc, Great review!
Welcome to the Forum!

I have a few questions though.
How is the menuki attached?
Do you think the battle wrap and menuki would hold up with regular usage? (training, not cutting)
I enjoyed the review, but really don't care much for the sword.
I would think the hump would be a detriment to both the drawing and sheathing of the sword. With this tsuka, the sword gives the impression of a cut down Nagamaki (probably what it was meant to represent?) to katana length. Although with modern production swords I am never quite sure 'what' they had in mind?

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Marc, Great review!
Welcome to the Forum!

Thanks for the Welcome.... it is good to be here.


I have a few questions though.
How is the menuki attached?
Do you think the battle wrap and menuki would hold up with regular usage? (training, not cutting)


I assume that the menuki are attached via adhesive as is the case in many modern, and period examples... in period examples I expect rice glue was used... for modern examples it is likely a bit more modern adhesive.

I don't see any issue with katate maki holding up to regular usage... as i have a James Raw blade mounted by Fred Lohman the same way, and have had no trouble with it...

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but I don't really think that this is a good choice for training... for one , it is a live blade... and to train with a live blade, you pretty much have to be high up in Toyama or Shinkendo don't you ? Or are there other arts I'm not aware of that put an emphasis on live blade training?

Second reason i wouldn't want to train with this blade is the tsuka size and shaping... but thats personal preference... what this sword is is a fun, sturdy little cutter.....




I enjoyed the review, but really don't care much for the sword.
I would think the hump would be a detriment to both the drawing and sheathing of the sword.


Actually the hump doesn't affect drawing at all... and is almost like a cheater bar for noto... ity is a good indicator of where the kissaki is... I don't like the hump either, but for aesthetic reasons... mechanically , it is fine...


With this tsuka, the sword gives the impression of a cut down Nagamaki (probably what it was meant to represent?) to katana length. Although with modern production swords I am never quite sure 'what' they had in mind?

Well , since u-no-kubi geometry is based on naginata naoshi.. or cut down pole arms... i expect that is what they were trying to capture in the sugata.... the tsuka is just a unshaped tsuka, like the older Hanwei models.. and I suspect was done such to save on costs....

[Stitch]

Wonderful review!

I think I might be more inclined to get the Shinogi Zukuri. I'm not real wild about the way the spine tapers at the end of the blade.

That said, I might even wait to see if Hanwei adds a Shaolin Broadsword to their Raptor series.

[Dotanuki]

Marc,

I think you may have misunderstood me, I meant the katana literally looked like they cut down the tsuka of a nagamaki and rewrapped it. I would expect a nagamaki to have a beefier tsuka than a katana to offset the stress of a cut on the tsuka.
And is this type of katana used by any particular ryu?
I know in the Bujinkan, they have a 14 inch tsuka on their specialised katana (short blade in long saya), but they use their tsuka for close in locking techniqes. (kind of unique to them, but not neccessarily) With the beefier tsuka might this not be a reason?
I am not trying to mess with you here or anything, just trying to hold a discussion, as I don't know the answers to these questions.

Although I practice neither any branch of the Toyama Ryu or Shinkendo (both of which I respect immensely), I do have enough time in grade to practice with a live blade, LOL. Even by their standards.
Although I don't concern myself much with what goes on out there in the mainstream anymore, yes, there are arts that teach training with shinken, just not in commercial schools, (safety reasons) but rather old style dojos.

Question? (because I really don't know!)

Are you telling me you can't practice with a live blade in training in the Toyama Ryu or Shinkendo unless you are sufficiently ranked? But then why are you allowed backyard cutting?
Or are you allowed?
Most dojo's would rather have you actually trained with actually using a shinken, before ever allowing one to go out there cutting, without actual knowledge of technique or hasuji? (correct angle)
Maybe I misunderstood what you said?
But you said this live blade wasn't good for actual training? but good for cutting? So in other words are you telling me this blade is only good for backyard cutting?

I can't myself see how a tsuka, battle wrapped, with the menuki on the outside would last during actual training with the sword, irregardless if it was a shinken or not. This was the question I was asking!
Seeing as how, I never handled one myself, I wanted the opinion of someone who has, as I might be missing something.
I wondered about the leather ito being slippery during training also, (on other swords) it wasn't untill recently when Bob-O said he had a hard time with the leather being slippery, that I had my answer to that question. As I never handled a sword with a leather ito either.

Also, if a person was trained using a normal katana, are you telling me on the draw, with this sword, the hump might not bounce off the koiguchi maybe even cutting into it? I seriously want to know the answer to this question. As I draw by feel and instinct, these are questions I want to know. Depending on the placement of the hump, the same could hold true on the noto, I cannot tell by the pictures. Only a person who is handling it can tell me.
The reason I am asking these questions, is everyone seems to be making a fuss over this sword, I want to know why?
Is this what you would call a specialty sword?
If so, what would be the specialty?
As you can see by my questions, I really could care less if this sword is a good cutter or not. I would like to have a real discussion on swords, 'not' just the always "is it a good cutter?"

Also, there are many, many styles, most of which are not really seen on this continent. Many have different ways of gripping the sword, and even hand movement along the tsuka during actual usage of the sword. Don't judge by the art you know, because there are many ways of doing things.
Just because you haven't seen them, don't mean they don't exist!
Marc, you being on all these forums, I assume you know this already.
I hope I don't sound too grumpy here, as I am very tired, And probably shouldn't be posting untill I was more alert.

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Marc,

I think you may have misunderstood me,

I do not believe I did, and i did my best to answer all your quetions.


I meant the katana literally looked like they cut down the tsuka of a nagamaki and rewrapped it. I would expect a nagamaki to have a beefier tsuka than a katana to offset the stress of a cut on the tsuka.

I believe you are overthinking this . It is my opinion that this is just a tsuka that is being used to cut down on manufacturing time to keep costs down. Hanwei has similarly thick and unshaped tsuka on older models... in fact it used to be a Hanwei trait ... the infamous axe-handle tsuka. As all three Raptor models sport identically shaped tsuka , I do not believe they are trying to approximate a cut down nagimaki... it is my opinion that they are only trying to cut costs.


And is this type of katana used by any particular ryu?

Not to my knowlege. This sugata evolved from cut down naginata , and as such is rarely seen in daito length historically, but usually in shoto. There are historic examples of daito length uno-kubi , but they are certainly not prevalent.

I know in the Bujinkan, they have a 14 inch tsuka on their specialised katana (short blade in long saya), but they use their tsuka for close in locking techniqes. (kind of unique to them, but not neccessarily) With the beefier tsuka might this not be a reason?

Frankly, I don't pay much attention to Bujinkan and I question a whole lot of their claims as far as history, techniques and weapons... but thats just me , and I do not wish debate it...

Again , I believe the unshaped tsuka-ho are just being used as a cost saving measure on these low priced swords.




I am not trying to mess with you here or anything, just trying to hold a discussion, as I don't know the answers to these questions.

Although I practice neither any branch of the Toyama Ryu or Shinkendo (both of which I respect immensely), I do have enough time in grade to practice with a live blade, LOL. Even by their standards.
Although I don't concern myself much with what goes on out there in the mainstream anymore, yes, there are arts that teach training with shinken, just not in commercial schools, (safety reasons) but rather old style dojos.


I am aware of high ranking ko-ryu members using shinken for paired kata and the like, but in my experience using Shinken for everday training is out of the norm.


Question? (because I really don't know!)

Are you telling me you can't practice with a live blade in training in the Toyama Ryu or Shinkendo unless you are sufficiently ranked? But then why are you allowed backyard cutting?
Or are you allowed?
Most dojo's would rather have you actually trained with actually using a shinken, before ever allowing one to go out there cutting, without actual knowledge of technique or hasuji? (correct angle)
Maybe I misunderstood what you said?


What I am saying is that IME there is no Ryu-ha that is going to allow you to train with shinken for some time... and many Ryu-ha may make you wait several years before touching shinken. Some Ryu-ha never use shinken, as tameshigiri is not a part of their curriculum .

I mention those two particular schools because they are known for putting emphasis on using live blades in training, where many do not but still, one does not begin using Shinken in ones first couple of years except for closely supervised tameshigiri sessions. This is my experience and may be incorrect. I certainly cannot speak for every school , everywhere.

It is my experience that training on the kata to learn tosen, and hasuji and other concepts are drilled in through long use of mogito (iaito) before the student is ever allowed to touch shinken. Shinken trianing is not necessary to learnm technique or hasuji , iaito or bokken work fine for this purpose.




But you said this live blade wasn't good for actual training? but good for cutting? So in other words are you telling me this blade is only good for backyard cutting?


What I said is that the tsuka is not comfortable enough in my hands to want to spend hours practicing kata, chudan-jodan, noto, etc... and I'm still not sure that a live blade is the best tool for that purpose.

Hanwei marketed this sword as a tough cutter for beginners or untrained people who will use it on non-traditional targets.

IMO that is what they have achieved.



I can't myself see how a tsuka, battle wrapped, with the menuki on the outside would last during actual training with the sword, irregardless if it was a shinken or not. This was the question I was asking!

I understand, and I answered that I have NEVER had a problem with katate-maki.... I actually prefer it... though it is surely a personal preference unless your Sensei forbids it , in which case it is unacceptable.




Also, if a person was trained using a normal katana, are you telling me on the draw, with this sword, the hump might not bounce off the koiguchi maybe even cutting into it? I seriously want to know the answer to this question. As I draw by feel and instinct, these are questions I want to know. Depending on the placement of the hump, the same could hold true on the noto, I cannot tell by the pictures. Only a person who is handling it can tell me.


I tried to answer this question as well. The "hump" is NOT an issue for drawing or sheathing... if anything it makes noto easier. Did you not understand my answer? Or just doubt my word?:)

Perhaps you would like to hear Keith Larmans thoughts on the matter... :

Yes, the kissaki had a bit of weird overhand on the mune as shown in posts elsewhere here on the forum. I've not see that before. But it didn't affect my draw or resheathing at all which kind of surprised me. It felt a little different, but it had no real negative effect....It does look odd and I don't quite get why they did it. But once I stopped worrying about it and tried drawing/resheathing the sword I had no problem with it. Oddly enough having that there provided some serious feedback about when the kissaki was almost clear for noto. Felt a bit funny, but I found no real drawback to it. Not my cup of tea either, but hey, it didn't seem to detract.


I assume you are aware of Keith's excellent credentials?



The reason I am asking these questions, is everyone seems to be making a fuss over this sword, I want to know why?

I'm not sure, but I think that is likely because it is cheap, and tough, and offered in two sugata Hanwei has not offered before.


Is this what you would call a specialty sword?

Yes

If so, what would be the specialty?

Backyard Cutting


As you can see by my questions, I really could care less if this sword is a good cutter or not. I would like to have a real discussion on swords, 'not' just the always "is it a good cutter?"

Yes, I understand, and I tried to present a clear picture of the sword in my review. But the long and short of this sword is that it was made to be a cutter, and that is reaally all it is . Aside from beeing a tough , fun little cutter , it is nothing special.


Also, there are many, many styles, most of which are not really seen on this continent. Many have different ways of gripping the sword, and even hand movement along the tsuka during actual usage of the sword. Don't judge by the art you know, because there are many ways of doing things.
Just because you haven't seen them, don't mean they don't exist!
Marc, you being on all these forums, I assume you know this already.
I hope I don't sound too grumpy here, as I am very tired, And probably shouldn't be posting untill I was more alert.


I am well aware ... but all we can do as individuals is report how things appear to ourselves , through the lenses of our perception and experience. I cannot speak to how a sword will feeel to someone trained in a style I am not familiar with, I can only speak on my own experiences... but hopefully I can present a clear enough picture for others to judge through the lenses of their own perception.


I hope I was able to clear up some of your questions this time.:)

[Mako]

I assume that the menuki are attached via adhesive as is the case in many modern, and period examples... in period examples I expect rice glue was used... for modern examples it is likely a bit more modern adhesive.

Period and many modern menuki on katate-maki have 2 'prongs' which fit underneath the ito. ;)

Great review as I've already stated but I don't like the sword...I think it's 'fugly'.

[bobO]

Guys, that was a great discussion on this sword and answered quite a few of my questions concerning this blade. Thank you both. I'm looking forward to an update on how this sword holds up with use.

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Period and many modern menuki on katate-maki have 2 'prongs' which fit underneath the ito. ;)

Great review as I've already stated but I don't like the sword...I think it's 'fugly'.

Many are also glued on.... as is the case with my custom by Lohman... and most others i have seen.

I have not seen pegged menuki for use with tsukamaki on katana only for aikuchi tanto... but I am sure thay mmust exist...

[Mako]

I have not seen pegged menuki for use with tsukamaki on katana only for aikuchi tanto... but I am sure thay mmust exist...
Here's a modern one on this forum and I've seen many for sale from tosogu dealers over the years. ;)

I dont think you'll be disapointed.

Oni asked me a question about the menuki placement in a PM that I was meaning to ask on the forum when I first recieved this sword.
He asked how the menuki was secured to the ito and if its glued or not.
heres the pic:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q10/dragonsbrew717/SDC10036.jpg
I've been curious myself, all battle wrap that I recall seeing have the menuki banded on each end, and this one is visibly open. I would hate to think its simply glued on to a sword of this price range and quality, I can say its on there extremely secure however its held on.

has anyone seen pieces like this? or have knowledge about it?

If I wake up early enough before work, i'll try to contact Reliks or possibly someone from Hanwei to find out something.
Update on the menuki: I wasnt at home yet when I wrote that last post, when I got home I gave the piece a good once over and Oni you can rest assured that their not glued. I got my fingernail under one of the wingtips and managed to notice the menuki has some form of tab or tabs on the underside that holds under the ito. good to know.

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Thanks for the example. i have done a bit of looking , and found some examples of what you mentioned, and some of glued menuki as well.... so I guess the answer is the same as it is about so many things pertaining to Japanese swords.... it depends ;)

[Dotanuki]

Marc,

Thank you for the quote from Keith Larman, as he actually answered my questions. I would have believed you also, if you would have answered in such a manner.

I am actually disappointed here, as I would of thought the hump and configuration of the sword would have had a deeper purpose other than being a backyard cutter. You know like, the hump prying apart ribs, or the withdraw of a thrust dragging some organs with it, or maybe entangling a kimono sleeve, or prying a mempo off a kabuto! You know the stuff you would figure a sword might do in combat! But to be just a specialty backyard cutter, big disappointment! They might as well just put some holes in the next blade to give the swords a better whistling sound for the backyard cutters, who can't get the sound from a normal Hi.
But,.......... I don't know, if you check BudK this might already be being done!

I found your 'lecture' on the current training methods of the sword arts quite interesting also, on what is, and what isn't allowed.
I started training in the sword arts 30 years ago, this year. I was already a yudansha in a traditional Okinawan martial art, I wasn't allowed to train in the sword arts untill I was a yudansha. My first training, was a varient of Omori Ryu Shoden, which is prevalent in many Iaido arts, the Ryu is irrelevant to this conversation. I have studied and trained in many others since then, as I never stopped training except for periods of illness or surgery.
Very few people back then, were in the sword arts. You could probably count them on your hands. It is funny, but all those first practitioners, (many who are dead now) now are no longer mentioned, their names purged, like a Russian political purge. The elite forums have learned the lessons of politics. Those that control the information media, control everything.
Except for Donn Draeger, (who I idolised then, as well as now) the first pioneer of the ancient martial arts, who presented the ancient martial arts to the Western world. They adopted him as their own, a true icon, the lesson of those with a political agenda (self promotion of their own arts!) adopt a true icon. BTW, for those who don't know, Draeger has been dead now, many years also. (easier to adopt them, when they're dead)
I found it amusing, your disdain for the Bujinkan, they were also at one time, the "only" authentic ancient art. With ninja's and ninja magazines everywhere, they also dominated the information media, with their haughtyness and attacks on others. Yet today, they are on the receiving end of a new cycle. I imagine 25 or 30 years from now the sword arts (in America, not Japan) will suffer the same fate. The butt of derision from the next wave of the martial art in popularity.
Those that practice the true ideals of the arts will always be around though, it is in their blood. They are there to train and learn, not promote their own agenda, to attract students, or to bolster one's ego. Just to train, for the sake of training. A concept, I believe is lost in today's world!
Just as in Japan, the true ideals and principles will be passed down quietly, to those who are lucky enough to find and pursue them.
Those promoting them commercially or on the Internet, will find that life is fleeting and find themselves starting to fade into oblvion, just as ninjutsu is currently doing.
What's that old saying? "That which comes around, goes around"

[bobO]

:-OOMG, Dotanuki has referenced Budk, it's all over but the crying! The thing that gets me about "The Bump" is you hear that it has been seen before. By who? Can ANYONE show me an example???:Praying:

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

I'm sorry that I did not answer to your satisfaction. I think if you reread my answer you will see it says MUCH the same thing as Keith Larman. You asked me if the "hump" impared drawing the swordor resheathing it, I gave you a very clear answer.. that answer was NO it does not... simple and easily understood, yet you seemed incredulous , and I have trouble understanding where you are coming from...


I did not presume to lecture, I simply shared my experience as I see it.
As with ALL things , your mileage may vary.I do not pretend to know all things about all traditons.. I'm just sharing what I know from my experiences , as always , I open to correction.

I'm not sure that any $200 through hardened production sword would be something special, or even something that any ranking practioner would desire to train with. .. We are talking about the Hanwei version of a Cheness here.

IMHO if one is looking for a production katana to serve as a useful training tool, one should look to Citadel, or Sword Store, or possibly Bugei, but certainly not a $200 sword that is only a rough approximation of a katana.





I found it amusing, your disdain for the Bujinkan, they were also at one time, the "only" authentic ancient art.

I'd love to hear some justification for this. It goes against everything I know ... The high ranking members of Bujinkan can't even agree upon the "secrets " of their own history. Just check the varying accounts from Steven K Hayes , and Hatsumi for evedence of this. There are no credible references anywhere that I know of that verify the histrocity of Bujinkin, its techniques, or many of its so called weapons... in years of study, I've yet to see a SINGLE example of a ninjato, or shikorogatana , or gyaku ni wakizashi... and I am sure you are aware as I am that Hatsumi Soke had the histories rewritten...

So maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but I'm afraid I do not know how Bujinkan could ever have been regarded as the only authentic ancient art when so many ko-ryu , such as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu have well documented unbroken traditions and lineage dating back to the 14th and 15th century...

I'm sure I must misunderstand you .... perhaps you were speaking with tongue in cheek.... I too remember the ninja craze of the 80s, where a lot of these ninja myths were born....

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

:-OOMG, Dotanuki has referenced Budk, it's all over but the crying! The thing that gets me about "The Bump" is you hear that it has been seen before. By who? Can ANYONE show me an example???:Praying:


I have never seen anything like it.. nor anyone that I know of has either.

I believe it is a misunderstanding of the diamond shaped sswelling on the mune at the munekado where the high shinogi rejoin the mune.the name of this sugata literally means cormorants neck, because the shape of the sugata resembled the shape of that bird... I believe the hump is just a misconception of the uno-kubi kissaki geometry.

People far more knowlegable than myself have also stated that there is no historical precedent fpr the hump, that anyonr knows of...

[Caliper]

great review man, I've seen your reviews on SFI too and they are the best, definitely cover all the things I wonder about a katana

glad to have you onboard with us here :detective:

[Dotanuki]

Marc,

I was not speaking tongue in cheek, I was being outright sarcastic. Pretty much every sentence was.
Your answer to me was exactly the same as Keith Larman's, the only difference, is the smug way you presented it.
You say you are not used to people questioning you, considering it rude.
Well I am not used to being answered in a smug manner, and I consider that to be rude. You are not a moderator here, where you can cut someone off when you don't like what they're saying or question you.

Mileage may vary, huh? Considering I was studying the sword arts when you were still playing with your toys, I would say that is quite a bit of mileage
You remind me of a brand new shodan, asking a visiting instructor if he has any experience? Not smart enough, to treat all visitors with respect, because at times you never know who you are really talking to!!!

A $200 dollar sword not being worthy of a serious practitioner to consider training with?
What a elitist bunch of crap!!
Maybe if they would of charged a thousand plus dollars, the hump would of meant something then!!!!!
I suppose you think those armies of samurai, all had elite Nihon-To blades, those bushi carried into combat. The low ranking samurai and Ashigaru would have been probably lucky to have a blade compareable to that modern $200 production sword.
I remember reading a story about the famous Nakamura sensei, taught Powers sensei (Toyama Ryu) with a alloy blade, because they didn't have the availibility of something better at the time. I quess the transmission of knowledge was worth more than the price of a sword!

The Bujinkan being the only "authentic" ancient art. I don't know how I could of been any more sarcastic with that sentence. I'm sure many of them will 'still' tell you that, even today!
The point lost on 'you', was at the time, (ninja craze) the smug attitude and control of information to the public. (them being only the only real ninja's) Which has now came back to bite them on the arse.

I once read the Koryu people state, there are only maybe 10 people qualified to teach the Koryu arts in the U.S.
I believe them.
I also believe unless you have written permission from a Koryu to represent them on their views, it is best to keep your comments to yourself as you are not qualified, or have the permission to make any statements about them!

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Marc,

I was not speaking tongue in cheek, I was being outright sarcastic. Pretty much every sentence was.

I see ,So I was correct that you were being rude and consdescending, and it was not just imagined . Truly the way of a real Martial Artist :-O

Your answer to me was exactly the same as Keith Larman's, the only difference, is the smug way you presented it.

Smug my big toe.... I said :

"Actually the hump doesn't affect drawing at all... and is almost like a cheater bar for noto... ity is a good indicator of where the kissaki is... I don't like the hump either, but for aesthetic reasons... mechanically , it is fine..."

If that seems smug to you ... if that seems like anything other than me answering your question , then you have serious mental issues which I can not help you with , specifically self -worth issues , and paranoia. You percieve insult where none exist, and speak from a place of such arrogance that you assume others are doing the same.



You say you are not used to people questioning you, considering it rude.


I certainly don't give a DAMN if you question my facts... or accuracy of information ... but when you ask for my OPINION you are damn right I find it rude to second guess it.... AS IF I don't know what my OWN opinion is?

Well I am not used to being answered in a smug manner, and I consider that to be rude

I would consider it rude as well IF I HAD BEEN SMUG TO YOU ... I MERELY TRIED TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY . Unlike YOU who freely ADMITS that your whole damn post was sarcastic:-O



. You are not a moderator here, where you can cut someone off when you don't like what they're saying or question you.

I can damn well choose not to answer or acknowlege though... WHICH I DID NOT DO ...

I graciously TRIED to answer ALL your questions, which you then ASKED AGAIN as if I were a child that needed to be prompted to voice my views, and as if I needed to reconsider those views.


Mileage may vary, huh? Considering I was studying the sword arts when you were still playing with your toys, I would say that is quite a bit of mileage

I can't tell that you have any degree of training discipline the way you conduct yourself and express your views.. perhaps you are a LORD of martial arts , it is not for me to decide or even care, but the way you conduct yourself suprises me for someone who has trained for 30 years.


You remind me of a brand new shodan, asking a visiting instructor if he has any experience? Not smart enough, to treat all visitors with respect, because at times you never know who you are really talking to!!!

Realy ? DO I ? Well the truth is I never questiioned your sacred experience.. I just told you mine .... IN FACT I ASKED YOU TO CORRECT ME IF I WAS WRONG.

Answering some of the blithe questions you were asking was treating you with respect... if you percieved a slight in my words, again.. THAT IS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR PERCEPTION


A $200 dollar sword not being worthy of a serious practitioner to consider training with?
What a elitist bunch of crap!!


You are BIG on hostility and personal attack , aren't you? Call me elitist if you want to... I don't give a damn WHAT people immature enough to resort to name calling have to say ...

The fact is, the sword is nontraditional, and many folks are not going to consider it worthy of a training sword . HELL Hanwei themselves label it as for beginners... but I suppose YOU know their intentions for this sword better than they themselves. Better than James Williams who helped design it ?It certainly would never be approved by Obata Sensei for Shinkendo as it lacks a metal second mekugi. What other ryu might think of it I do not know...

Maybe if they would of charged a thousand plus dollars, the hump would of meant something then!!!!!


If you think it would fine... but it is no big freaking mystery ... it is simply a two hundred dollar Chinese production katana with an inaccuracy in geometry NO BIG SURPRISE THERE....

It is the first version of u-no-kubi zukuri Hanwei has ever produced , and the geometry is a bit off... but who cares on a sword of this price? And before you call me an elitist again, you shpuld know that Keith Larman said that , not me.... he also said if he had one , he would grind that hump off... he also said that such a thing NEVER existed on nihonto... and he knows a thing or two... so I defer to his knowlege that NO MATTER THE PRICE, THE HUMP MEANS NOTHING.


I suppose you think those armies of samurai, all had elite Nihon-To blades, those bushi carried into combat.


Absolutely they had nihonto... there were no production blades then. Certainly quality varied even amogst nihonto, but there were no monosteel TH blades . They just didn't exist.... at some point blades used a small percentage of nanban-tetsu, but only a percentage, and they weren't cheap blades either.




The low ranking samurai and Ashigaru would have been probably lucky to have a blade compareable to that modern $200 production sword.

What evidence do you have to support that ? To tell you the truth , I don't think the Ashiigaru would be carrying swords at all... Yari and Naginata were battlefield weapons , and even yuma.... but the calvary that carried tachi were Samurai .

Now samurai served shogun , and the lord they served was responsible for arming them... of course lordless Samurai might have to arm themselves... and I have heard that a Samurai who could not afford a quality blade would sell his home to buy one....



I remember reading a story about the famous Nakamura sensei, taught Powers sensei (Toyama Ryu) with a alloy blade, because they didn't have the availibility of something better at the time. I quess the transmission of knowledge was worth more than the price of a sword!


Certainly, when I first came into contact with JSA in the early 90s only stainless steel crap blades , or shingunto , or showato were available, except antiques. My first sword was a mumei shinshinto... and not as expensive as one might think...

but these days much transmission of knowlege is done with alloy blades ... iaito... as I tried to say earlier....



The Bujinkan being the only "authentic" ancient art. I don't know how I could of been any more sarcastic with that sentence. I'm sure many of them will 'still' tell you that, even today!
The point lost on 'you', was at the time, (ninja craze) the smug attitude and control of information to the public. (them being only the only real ninja's) Which has now came back to bite them on the arse.


Frankly , I appreciate your attitude towards Bujinkan.. I have no love of it myself... but the whole control of information thing smacks of conspiracy theory to me... true budo has always been about, for those that sought it.. and the information has always been out there , just as the misinformation has.


I once read the Koryu people state, there are only maybe 10 people qualified to teach the Koryu arts in the U.S.
I believe them.


Outdated statement IMHO. Today the ko-ryu travel the world hosting seminars and promoting the growth of ko-ryu....

I also believe unless you have written permission from a Koryu to represent them on their views, it is best to keep your comments to yourself as you are not qualified, or have the permission to make any statements about them!

Well it seems that is what you are doing... speaking for them , as I am ceratinly not. I am certainly able to mention them , and I will and don't give a damn if it ruffles your feathers or not.

I usually make it a habit not to dicuss training on forums.. and never hold myself up as an example of the Ryu I train in , specifically because of guys like you who like to politicize and push your own agenda. Budo should not be a point of contrition... nor should your experience be a badge you wear to try to put down others who were "playing with toys" when you first began training.

Thank you for reminding me of the moral and emotional content that is found amongst online personalities , and reminding me whyt I don't usually expound upon training , which I hold to be personal and spiritual.



If anyone is being smug and rude, it is yourself. I don't know who you are , and at this point I don't give a damn either.

I make the statements I make without the benefit of clever screen names , so you know exactly who is speaking to you .

You are name calling and perhaps shifting and projecting your own behaviors onto others.

Regardless of who you are, you have showed yourself to me fairly well, sarcastic, by your own admission...

I sincerely hope that your behavior is not indiciative of the senior members of this forum...

At any rate , I will take my leave of you all now.. and flee back to the safety of my "elitist forums" where despite tha fact that they "control information" they still manage to conduct themselves with some measure of respect, and also show a basic understanding of the varying sugata of the Japanese sword.

[Taygrd]

I am at a loss for all of this. I think this forum honestly tries to be welcoming to all regardless of knowledge level or personal idiosyncrasies (This is not a veiled insult so you should not perceive it as one). There are disputes from time to time, however those issues are generally resolved and everyone moves on. As moderators we try not to censor anyone for opinions or beliefs unless they are considerably out of line. There are no cliques that berate or ignore individuals to push someone out. I am not really sure how this all started and I am not concerned with that. I know that both of you have knowledge and insight to bring to this modest forum. I ask that there be some peaceful resolution to this discussion. Almost everyone here is here because we love swords of all types and origins. I am not acting as a person of authority, for I am not, I am asking as a friend. Thanks.

[Firehand10k]

Not going to get into some of what I saw here or even go back to find out what the bump is. I saw it in the pictures and i think i like it. Dunno if it affacts anything other than appearance but i give in a predatory beak like look to go with the cool name of raptor.

[Kurubushi Kamu]

One consideration of the geometry of the 'Hump' could be Hanwei wanted to save on production costs and use the same equipment to make all 3 blades in the series, with the shaping being similar to the shobu done on the same grinder. Removal of the 'Hump' would require perhaps another final grind they did not wish to do to save money. It also gives the sword a one-of -a kind look. (Just my 2 cents) KK

[Mako]

At any rate , I will take my leave of you all now.. and flee back to the safety of my "elitist forums" where despite tha fact that they "control information" they still manage to conduct themselves with some measure of respect, and also show a basic understanding of the varying sugata of the Japanese sword.
Oh well...looks like all those years I've spent attempting the study of Nihon-to were a waste of time and I'm stuck here with the rest of you ignorant peasants. :)

[illmade2]

I've said it before I'll say it again, Boy I'm glad I'm just a barbarian with a broad sword!!!!

[Mako]

I've said it before I'll say it again, Boy I'm glad I'm just a barbarian with a broad sword!!!!
I'm glad you are too. http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3037/rolleye111ja7.gif (http://imageshack.us)
:)

It's at times like this when I wish I had an interest in needlepoint. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1745/iconrolleyes1.gif (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iconrolleyes1.gif)

[illmade2]

Ahhh then you need a rapier!!!

Might I suggest this Sir, practical and pretty just the thing for the man about town....
http://www.outfit4events.com/images/large/watermark/pal_1903_06_LRG.jpg

[bobO]

Sugata, That's the sweet spot on a katana...right? Who you calling a pheasant?

[Taygrd]

Oh well...looks like all those years I've spent attempting the study of Nihon-to were a waste of time and I'm stuck here with the rest of you ignorant peasants. :)
Glad to have you!:) Sugata is Spanish for sugar right?

[the blade master]

oi? thats mr peasant to you mush=))

[Mako]

Sugata is Spanish for sugar right?
I dunno, I'm Welsh/Irish but I'll let you know when the wife and some of the grandkids return from Majorca on May 18...if I don't drink myself to death before. :lager:

[RobbyDoom]

Glad to have you!:) Sugata is Spanish for sugar right?
Dolce, in Mexican Spanish.
Azucar, in Spain Spanish. :)

[the blade master]

hey mako
fill your boots while you have the chance
you know what wives are like when there around:lager:=))=))

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

Oh well...looks like all those years I've spent attempting the study of Nihon-to were a waste of time and I'm stuck here with the rest of you ignorant peasants. :)

Actually, you taught me something, and I appreciate that.



The person that was going on about "elitist forums" wasn't me. BTW

Fact is, I spend most of my time on SBG...
NOT an "elitist" forum.


I don't enjoy exchanges like the one above. I simply tried my best to answer his questions, and was accused of being elitist, and insulted besides.

You can call me elitist if you choose, but I do not believe you can study a modern made production sword for insight the way one can antiques.

I do not believe the sword above is suitable for dojo use... but I HAVE NO idea how that makes me an elitist ... IT IS STILL MY SWORD.... and I still gave a glowing review of it.


So as a new member... I popped in.. dropped a couple of reviews... was insulted, left... then popped back in to maybe smooth things over, and find glib comments...

I appreciate you teaching me that about the menuki, Mako... and since you have years of nihon-to study under your belt, what are your thoughts on the tsuka, and the hump, etc.?

[bobO]

Yeah, I'll admit to being glib. But it was not done mean spirited, just trying to lighten the mood. Marc I have always liked your reviews and the way you stand up to the opposition they sometimes bring on. People disagree and when there passionate about something they tend to disagree passionately. But this is a forum and to be expected as long as all voices are heard. Still think that was a good review. And if Hanwei put that hump there to create a buzz, they succeed.:ranting: PS once you get past Cerberus we have alot of fun here.

[Kurubushi Kamu]

Good to see you still posting Marc. As the Raptors are admittedly production swords made to satisfy a lower price range (and demographic of 'backyard cutters') it is feasible Hanwei wanted to make the strongest sword for the cheapest price. "Battle wrap" uses less ito than hinerimaki and the through hardened 5160 blade is probably cheaper to produce than a DH blade. With their years of producing swords I'm sure Hanwei was able to make the best product they could for the money. If people want a higher end sword they can check out the higher priced offerings. More choice for the customer. KK

[Taygrd]

Glad to see you are still posting Marc. Glad to have you.

[Mako]

Oh well...looks like all those years I've spent attempting the study of Nihon-to were a waste of time and I'm stuck here with the rest of you ignorant peasants. :)

As you've chosen to quote me in that post I presume that it was primarily aimed at me, so...
Actually, you taught me something, and I appreciate that.

My pleasure. ;)

The person that was going on about "elitist forums" wasn't me. BTW

Must have been me then, seeing as how your post is directed at me.

Fact is, I spend most of my time on SBG...

Your point being?.....
NOT an "elitist" forum.
True.

I don't enjoy exchanges like the one above. I simply tried my best to answer his questions, and was accused of being elitist, and insulted besides.

Please quote me as to where I also insulted you.

You can call me elitist if you choose, but I do not believe you can study a modern made production sword for insight the way one can antiques

Did I call you "elitist" or disagree with you?

I do not believe the sword above is suitable for dojo use... but I HAVE NO idea how that makes me an elitist ... IT IS STILL MY SWORD.... and I still gave a glowing review of it.

Again...your point being?

So as a new member... I popped in.. dropped a couple of reviews... was insulted, left... then popped back in to maybe smooth things over, and find glib comments...

Did you not think that...
At any rate , I will take my leave of you all now.. and flee back to the safety of my "elitist forums" where despite tha fact that they "control information" they still manage to conduct themselves with some measure of respect, and also show a basic understanding of the varying sugata of the Japanese sword.
..was a sweeping remark directed at all members here?
Hence my somewhat "glib" response.

I appreciate you teaching me that about the menuki, Mako... and since you have years of nihon-to study under your belt, what are your thoughts on the tsuka, and the hump, etc.?

You have the advantage of me Sir, I don't have the benefit of examining the sword in hand as yet but if you're referring to the sugata, I don't like it and until I see any pics, oshigata or any other evidence that it existed historically, I remain a cynic and can only come to the conclusion that it's a modern version of a surigate nagamaki and was never ubu, as for the tsuka-ito, my personal preference has always been the more traditional silk but that comes with an extra price as most things do.

To all other members:
My apologies.
This is the first and last time that you'll ever see this style of replying with multiple quotes from an individual post where it's been dissected by me, it's always something that I've found extremely boring and annoying to read on any forum and led me to believe that some people have far too much time on their hands and really need to get out more often.
What's my excuse?
I'm at home alone with the dog, it's late, blowing a gale and raining like hell.

[Marc Kaden Ridgeway]

As you've chosen to quote me in that post I presume that it was primarily aimed at me, so...

Actually I only quoted you for the purpose of thanking you ... the rest was disjpointed rambling and not directed at you .

My pleasure. ;)

Thanks;)




Must have been me then, seeing as how your post is directed at me.


Ummm no. By rereading the thread you can plainly see that the rant about "elitist forums controlling information" came from neither you nor me.




Your point being?.....


Must every phrase have a point?


True.



Indeed

Please quote me as to where I also insulted you.


I never said you insulted me... I apologize for not being clearer. i assumed you had read and comprehended the thread, and saw for yourself who said i was smug, unintelligent and elitist...



Did I call you "elitist" or disagree with you?

See above



Again...your point being?

The point here is pretty darn obvious , if you read and comprehend the thread




Did you not think that...

..was a sweeping remark directed at all members here?
Hence my somewhat "glib" response.


Actually I intended specifically for the person I directed it at. I apologize if it seemed sweeping to you or anyone else




You have the advantage of me Sir, I don't have the benefit of examining the sword in hand as yet but if you're referring to the sugata, I don't like it and until I see any pics, oshigata or any other evidence that it existed historically, I remain a cynic and can only come to the conclusion that it's a modern version of a surigate nagamaki and was never ubu, as for the tsuka-ito, my personal preference has always been the more traditional silk but that comes with an extra price as most things do.



Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do not believe it existed historically either... oh the sugata sure, just not that weird bit of geometry at the tip.



To all other members:
My apologies.
This is the first and last time that you'll ever see this style of replying with multiple quotes from an individual post where it's been dissected by me,


Actually, I find it to be very respectful and precise... and i do it so my comments are directed where I intend them...


it's always something that I've found extremely boring and annoying to read on any forum

I'm sorry to hear that . I consider this form of post quoting to be good internet ettiquite.




and led me to believe that some people have far too much time on their hands and really need to get out more often.


Hmmm well that is a bit insulting... perhaps I should quote that for you ...
However , as this response took me less than 5 minutes, and i am sitting outside at a lovely sidewalk cafe across from Peidmont Park as i type it, I'll go ahead and assume your less than congenial statement doesn't apply to me.


Again thanks for the info you've given me, and i apologize from any misunderstanding that arose from me quoting your post.